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JFXGILLIS

Correctly Political: Essays and Commentary
Articles Posted: 120  Links Seeded: 1512
Member Since: 3/2007  Last Seen: 5/17/2012

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Correctly Political: Screwing the Blue Pooch

Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:22 AM EDT
politics, democrats, congress, health-care-reform, pelosi, blue-dogs, provincialism, keith-poole, wilentz, bailyn
By jfxgillis

Blue Dog, looking kinda sad, if you ask me, and with very good reason, if you ask me that also.

Enjoying a better day, by Eileen Fontenot.

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Although I have argued this case informally on a number of occasions, since the rock and the hard place are here at last, the rubber is meeting the road, the push has been shoved, the fishing or cutting of bait must now happen, and the time has come for the pot to have its business done or to be gotten off of, I thought it was time to formalize my case.

Blue Dog Democrats are essentially doomed. There's no place left for them to hide. [Okay, okay, I promise to reduce the cliche to total-word ratio from now on.] Their careers are over, or all but over, even if a few of them hang on this November. Their force in national politics is about to collapse. And that will be the case regardless of the outcome of the vote on Health Care Reform upcoming in the next week or so and regardless of whether the Democrats keep control of Congress in the elections in November.


There are four phenomena at work destroying the Blue Dogs, and while they have for many years faced some combination of those, I don't think they can survive all four at once. At the electoral level, they have to fight at either a tactical or strategic disadvantage, or both, and at the ideological level they have both an American problem and a philosophical problem.

  • The Tactical Problem

Let us first map the territory. In all but a very few instances, the Blue Dog Democrats are not perfectly suited to their districts. Assuming a competitive or swing district, in most cases, the House Member represents either a leans-Democrat district for which they are slightly too conservative for their constituency, or they represent a leans-Republican district for which they are slightly too liberal. Before now that didn't matter much because the disjunction wasn't large enough to offset all the other factors favorable to the Blue Dog. Now it does matter. A lot.

Consider the fate of a Blue Dog in a leans-Democrat district. If that Member votes Nay on Health Care Reform, they will outrage the base voters in a leans-Democrat district, draw a primary challenge and quite possibly lose. A Democratic House Member helps defeat the primary domestic policy program of the Democratic party and expects the Democrats of their district to shrug it off? Ain't gonna happen. So that Member votes Aye to get by the primary. And things are even worse for that Member to vote Nay in a leans-Republican district because the smaller number of Democratic voters means Democratic activists and partisans are more influential. It'll be easier to beat a Blue Dog in a Democratic primary in a Republican district.

  • The Strategic Problem

But those are just the tactical considerations. Things are if anything worse at the strategic level in the general election.

If and when the Blue Dog does what they have to do to survive a primary, they still have to face a Republican in November. Simply because of gains the last two elections and the general rule of the party holding the White House losing seats, this election is already structurally awful for Democrats. A Blue Dog in a Republican district has to convince Republican voters that the Blue Dog is preferable to the Republican as a means of opposition to the party in power? Even if they voted Nay on Health Care Reform? It's to laugh. That Blue Dog will be fit for a Korean dinner, maybe, but they won't be in Congress anymore.

Similarly, if somehow the Blue Dog had voted No and survived a primary and made it to the general election in a leans-Democratic district, what does that Member think is going to happen to their base voter after having betrayed the highest priority domestic policy program of the Democratic party for the last five or six decades? Maybe they'll vote for the Blue Dog and maybe they won't, but maybe it'll rain that day or American Idol will be on. Eh.

Jeffrey H. Anderson of National Review posted a detailed and highly optimistic (for opponents) whip count, Three Reasons Why Obamacare Isn't Likely to Pass, based on those electoral tactical and strategic considerations. It's extremely well-informed and well-argued. It might even prove to be correct come next week. But that does not change the fact that those considerations don't matter anymore. If Anderson is proven right, that will simply mean that some measurable portion of moderate-to-conservative Democrats mistakenly believe that we still live in a political world that we don't live in anymore. And those Blue Dogs will pay the price for that delusion. Because even if the Blue Dogs succeed in navigating the tactical and strategic electoral obstacles, they still have to face two other problems, the American and philosophical problems mentioned above.

  • The American Problem

This 661-pixels-wide chart captures the American problem better than any 661-word disquisition could: House_and_Senate_Polar_46-111

Chart by Keith Poole, UCal San Diego, used with permission.

I call this the American Problem because it's unique among Western democracies (because of the Civil War, Jim Crow and various and sundry other related nastiness). In a nutshell, that chart shows the degree of partisan, and hence, ideological, cohesion in American politics from Reconstruction to the present. As the Democrats re-built themselves into a national party from their sectional roots and shook off their well-deserved reputation as being treasonous insurrectionists, there was a long period of loosely coalitionist politics, from about 1925 to about 1985, where neither party was especially ideological, partisan discipline was low and both parties had liberal and conservative wings. Not only was there room for Blue Dogs in national politics during this period, for much of the time they ruled the kennel. Top Dogs.

But those days are gone gone gone. And they ain't coming back. There used to be space for a Blue Dog to make a sincere and true case to their constituents that they were not a creature of the national party or not beholden in any way to their ideological adversaries within the Democratic party. Now you can bemoan the erosion of that space, or you can cheer its destruction, but you cannot deny that that space is all but gone. Handicapping the Health Care Reform vote as if that space still existed or resonated with voters is delusional. In fact, whatever tiny beachhead of space remains for Blue Dogs on which to huddle against the tide of partisan cohesion will be destroyed by the Health Care vote anyway. But none of these factors holds the power of the fourth factor.

  • The Philosophical Problem

I call this the Philosophical Problem not because it's about some conflict between political philosophies, but because it drives to the heart of what political philosophy is and does, what it's for and how it works. People do politics to settle conflicts about the way society is organized and the institutions of social organization are administered.

I believe the one of the primal conflicts in politics is the struggle between the Provincial and the Cosmopolitan. I would tell you that that struggle can be seen going back to Aristotle's Politics, but I can't. But the only reason I can't is because the old Greeks pretty much had that worked out: The Cities ruled, the Provinces were subjects. But pretty much everywhere else a political dynamic has existed, Guelphs and Ghibellines, Whigs and Tories, Federalists and Democratic-Republicans, that clash of social visions has been the animating force.

I don't mean "Provincial" to be pejorative at all, despite such connotations as it may have. And I don't mean "Cosmopolitan" to mean "urban," although the two are frequently associated. Harvard historian Bernard Bailyn, drawing from critic Kenneth Clark's aesthetic definition of those terms and applying it to the political thought of the Founders and Framers, laid out the distinction between Provincial and Cosmopolitan in a lecture he gave in 1998, "To Begin the World Anew, which was later turned into a book. It's brilliant. Read that lecture. Or the book. Or watch him discuss it for an hour on C-Span.

In the 2008 primaries, Princeton historian Sean Wilentz, a strong Hillary Clinton supporter, wrote a widely circulated and discussed essay: Barack Obama and the Unmaking of the Democratic Party. Turns out he was very, very wrong and very, very right. After a detailed exposition of the historic connection between the Democrats and white proletarians dating back to Andrew Jackson, Wilentz predicted dire electoral consequences from Obama's singular lack of appeal to the white working class and working poor:

Obama, if nominated, is almost certainly destined to lose unless he can suddenly reverse the trend that his own dismissive language and his supporters' contemptuous tone has accelerated during the primaries.

That. Was. Wrong. But Wilentz was right about something else: His core hypothesis. Obama is indeed unmaking the Democratic party. Or to be more precise, I guess, Obama's election is the unmaking of the Democratic party as Wilentz describes it, since I don't think it's anything Obama consciously created or caused or controlled.

Wilentz's argument, although he did not say so explicitly, was also the history of the degree to which the Democrats were the party of the Provinces. The problem for Obama is that he's so not a Provincialist he can't even fake it the way Bill Clinton did. It's just not an option as a matter of personality and character. And because things like, you know, actual policy that benefits the white working class and working poor don't seem to matter anymore in our stupid political discourse, there's not a lot Obama can do to strengthen the ties of Democrats to the Provinces. It may have been simply a fluke of circumstances and confluences of forces that allowed the Democrats to nominate and the voters to elect the most Cosmopolitan candidate the USA could accept. But that fluke did circumstand and those forces did conflow, and now Provincial Democrats--the Blue Dogs--have to try to exist in a party that is definitively Cosmopolitan because the leader of the party is so.

I just don't think that's possible, not for this political generation or so. And when time enough passes that that again might be possible, the unknowable future will have occurred. For now, the fate of the Blue Dogs is sealed, their doom is at hand. They can't save themselves voting this way or that, or collecting money from this lobby or that, or running attack ads against this opponent or that. Their problem is far too profound to solve with such petty and trivial machinations. Maybe, for once in their lives, they could just vote their conscience. I end with a picture:

Provincials

These Provincials used to be Democrats. Now they're not.
Photo Credit: Street scene, Kingwood, West Virginia.
Walker Evans, 1935
Library of Congress, FSA-OWI Collection

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  • Public Discussion (32)
jfxgillis

The HCR bill passes. Because enough Blue Dogs will get this.

  • 8 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:25 AM EDT
Just Neli

I always like your articles, even though I mostly disagree, but I have a couple of questions:

In Paragraph 2 under "The Strategic Problem", you make the statement that the upcoming election is "structurally awful" for the Democrats. What do you mean by this?

In your next to last paragraph, you state:

It's just not an option as a matter of personality and character. And because things like, you know, actual policy that benefits the white working class and working poor don't seem to matter anymore in our stupid political discourse, there's not a lot Obama can do to strengthen the ties of Democrats to the Provinces.

This seems to assume that the Republicans can somehow make a case for their support of the "working class and working poor" that extends beyond their circle of true believers. Am I correct? I don't think they can do this, since the only party that has shown concern for the plight of the "working class and working poor" in most voters' lifetimes is the Democratic Party. The "Aw Shucks" Routine laced with racist innuendo has won over just about all the Americans it can.

Talking heads have justified the space they occupy by citing the Massachusetts Senate Election as a sign that the Tax Evaders of America have gained some ground. This is not true. The Republicans won partially because they ran a darned good campaign (without the usual Republican smear tactics), AND because the Democrats ran a candidate that conducted NO campaign and disliked interacting with actual voters.

The "working class and working poor" in America are no longer denizens of the provinces, and they are not fools. That you apparently think they are is one reason that most Republicans will remain unelectable.

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:19 AM EDT
jfxgillis

Just Nelli:

Thank you.

If you understand wave theory in like the stock market, political parties go through regular waves of ups and down completely apart from the issues array of an election at hand.

For example, parties that make significant gains two elections in a row almost never win the third. That's because they've pretty much maxed out all the easy pickin's. And the 10 or so most vulnerable seats they hold are really vulnerable, usually picked off from a district where the advantage usually goes to the other way.

Also, Presidents almost always lose seats for their party in the first mid-terms.

Having those two structural (rather than issues) factors at play together make for an extremely difficult environment fror Dems. As a Dem, I actually don't mind that all that much because most of the seats lost will be Blue Dogs. As long as Nancy keeps the Gavel, even by just a few votes, I'm satisfied.

This seems to assume that the Republicans can somehow make a case for their support of the "working class and working poor" that extends beyond their circle of true believers

They don't have to. They really don't. All they have to do, and all they've been doing, and it's working, is press the Provincial/Cosmopolitan divide to the max and hope the working class whites go for it without considering the strict policy rationale. If they did vote policy, the Republicans would get killed because the white working class is getting a huge benefit from this bill. They're probably the MAIN population helped by HCR.

I voted for Coakley last January.

The "working class and working poor" in America are no longer denizens of the provinces, and they are not fools.

And please. Read the Bailyn lecture I linked. He made it clear that "Provincial" doesn't necessarily mean "out in the boondocks," or "bumpkin" as I made clear that "Cosmopolitan" doesn't necessarily mean "urban."

  • 3 votes
#1.2 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:44 AM EDT
lisaed

Jack--I completely disagree that the Senate bill is designed to primarily assist the white working class.....yesterday's vote will be effectively sow the seeds for the next Reagan revolution.

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:52 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

I completely disagree that the Senate bill is designed to primarily assist the white working class....

It's hardly debateable. Here's TNR's map of uninsured by Blue Dog district. But, this

yesterday's vote will be effectively sow the seeds for the next Reagan revolution.

May yet be the case. We shall see.

  • 1 vote
#1.4 - Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:08 PM EDT
Reply
MalamuteMan

WOW!!! What a tome... but a very informative and well written tome. I agree that the blue-dogs are doomed and I suspected it even without all this well reasoned information. I fear some of the things you have pointed out here are not only bad news for the blue-dogs, but for America as a whole. Those 661 pixels are really chilling... again I knew this... not so empirically... but simply by listening to our national discourse. I am not the historian that you apparently are Jack, and perhaps we have passed through and survived ideological division that is every bit as bad as what we see today, but this utterly intractable and now hysterical division is very worrisome to me.

  • 5 votes
Reply#2 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:17 PM EDT
jfxgillis

Mal:

Thanks, and sorry for the delay in replying. Not only does the formatting go screwy every time I fix a typo, but my tracker wasn't tracking my own article I took a freaking week to write. Grrrr.

I don't see those 661 pixels as chilling at all. I like 'em. The right-wing Democrats who made it possible did things like override Truman's veto of Taft-Hartley, kept Jim Crow alive and were otherwise a for for regress in American society.

Having ideologically coherent and competing major parties is good for the country.

  • 8 votes
#2.1 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:01 PM EDT
MalamuteMan

Well maybe I misinterpreted the chart... I saw it as a metric of an unprecedented refusal to compromise. Ideological coherence for our parties is great! And if the death of the blue dogs brings more coherence (and hopefully a little more spine) to the Democratic party I am all for it. I would say the Republican side has lost a bit of coherence of late, but they seem to have plenty of spine. If they are ideologically all over the map, they are unified in their desire to defeat President Obama and the Democrats... and it is UNCOMPROMISING, hypocritical, and often bizarre ideology that they stand on.

As for the new editor... I have had a lot of that problem myself, especially with articles that have any significant HTML. I have found that I must save the XHTML mode version of my articles in a simple text file on my own system in order to minimize the trouble. I have reported this several times to Mark and Lance with detailed step by step reproducible bug reports. They have been pretty responsive for me until recently, but I think they are either overwhelmed or tired of my pedantic reports. BTW- The very best procedure I have found for mitigating this problem is:

a) Put yourself in XHTML mode BEFORE entering the editor (by switching to XHTML mode on the comment editor).

b) Then enter the editor via Edit Content. I am not 100% sure about the necessity of this step, step "a" is very important, but having the HTML get mangled is such a hassle that I am willing to resorted to voodoo to try and fix things.

  • 1 vote
#2.2 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:22 PM EDT
jfxgillis

Mal:

Well maybe I misinterpreted the chart... I saw it as a metric of an unprecedented refusal to compromise

I don't see that as a misread. Refusal to compromise is a function of ideologically rational and competing major parties. The Tories don't compromise with Labor, Likud doesn't compromise with Maaretz and Free Liberals don't compromise with Democratic Socialists.

This idea of "consensus" or "bipartisanship" as the dominant political good ["High Broderism" as it's mocked by the left blogosphere] is toxic to a healthy democracy. In fact, and I might explore this idea in another article someday, it's virtually totalitarianism without the violence. Basically, David Broder argues for a one-party state for which he himself is the predominant scribe. With maybe a nominal vice-scribe position for his little pal Tommy Friedman.

I have found that I must save the XHTML mode version of my articles in a simple text file on my own system in order to minimize the trouble.

THANKS. GREAT TIP.

Put yourself in XHTML mode BEFORE entering the editor

I do make a point to start that way [and everyone should listen to Mal about that! Another GREAT TIP!!] but I always forget at some point in the editing process and screw it up.

  • 4 votes
#2.3 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:45 PM EDT
MalamuteMan

This idea of "consensus" or "bipartisanship" as the dominant political good ["High Broderism" as it's mocked by the left blogosphere] is toxic to a healthy democracy.

Hmmm... Well... Perhaps you will chime in when I publish my next article... because I see "consensus" or "bipartisanship" as you label it or a willingness to compromise as I label it as an absolute necessity "to a healthy democracy." I see it this way because I am a died in the wool Golden Rule guy. I see many ideologies and beliefs in America, and I hear so much of this "be like me or leave" rhetoric (even from flaming lefties like me, but primarily from the right) that sounds literally like civil war. In fact that was the inspiration for the article I am working on. First, in another article of mine I was engaging a staunch rightie but trying to do it in the most civil and respectful and empathetic way I could do it... This guy got my efforts to empathize with him, but he just could not accept the idea of living cooperatively with someone like me even if I was willing to agree to much of what HE wanted... So in what I saw as his sincere best effort to find a solution he suggested that we divide the country in half so that we could each have a place that we could happily live without the influence of people who are different. Then, in another article I saw a fellow leftie expressing her horror that we might have to endure more of the right-wing control foisted on us by GWB et al. Her solution was the same as the rightie's solution... divide the country in half. I hold this idea that we are strongest as a nation BECAUSE of diversity, but only when we accept those among us who are most different from ourselves, and that means being willing to compromise.

[Mal steps down off of his soap box... and saunters back to his article on animal cruelty...]

  • 5 votes
#2.4 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:28 PM EDT
jfxgillis

Mal:

We're talking past each other.

As I see it, there's a difference between compromise and acceptance, or consensus and agreement. And let me use another meta example on my side.

I know for a fact certain that there might be one or two of the 100 most important political issues upon which determined and I agree. Yet, when the President she supported was in office I accepted his rule even as I opposed it, and now when the President I support is in office, she accepts his rule even though she opposes him.

I am not interested in splitting the difference on closing Gitmo, for example, and finding a compromise. I want Obama to press the issue, and then definitively win or lose in Congress. There is frequently no happy medium to be reached, and in many, I daresay, most cases, when that appears to be the case, the result is most unhappy--the Bankruptcy Reform and Commodity Futures Trading Acts are two such compromises that spring to mind.

The consensus or compromise you're thinking of is structural: We all agree that we all live in this country and accept the results of elections. But after that, we can't and shouldn't all agree that the output of the system--the leaders elevated, policies imposed and measures enacted--is worth supporting in all cases. I do not want mike lonkowski supporting Obamacare because I know it's offensive to him on principle. (Thankfully, he doesn't).

A political system without a dialectic process is dying or dead. That means we have to all agree to argue about our disagreements. Then we have to settle each particular disagreement by vote, then agree to argue about another disagreement.

If the two folks you mention above got their way, I'd probably have to move to right-wing-land just to find somebody to argue with. Don't worry, I'll be okay. I got friends over there who'll hide me from hordes of dittoheads.

  • 3 votes
#2.5 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:15 PM EDT
MalamuteMan

I completely agree that there are issues for which there should be no compromise... absolutely... agreed on Gitmo... and I have nothing against righties standing up for their principles... especially if they are consistent and have at least some moral basis. The kind of uncompromising I am talking about is the kind that leaves something like 170 bills (I am pulling this figure out of the deep recesses of my memory, but I am pretty sure it is something like that) already passed by the House in limbo in the Senate... This is not principled disagreement... it is party warfare. Believe me I am not one of those kumbaya people that will let the other side roll over me just so I know that at least one side is being compromising. The Democrats made fools of themselves in this so called healthcare negotiation.

  • 5 votes
#2.6 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:10 PM EDT
jfxgillis

Mal:

Now that I agree with, but that's a somewhat different issue. That has to do with screwed up Senate procedures that allow the party that loses the election the power to control the destiny of the Upper House. And that's just .... @!$%#ed. I don't even blame them for doing it because if I were in their place, I'd do the same thing. It's like I go into a bank to rob it and some embezzling manager stuffs a bag of money in my hand as he escapes. "Yeah, well, I was about to rob you, but if you want to give me the money, that's cool too" as I scamper away laughing.

If the Dems keep control of the Senate, I expect a major change in that regard next January.

  • 4 votes
#2.7 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:54 PM EDT
MalamuteMan

I don't even blame them for doing it

I DO!!!

We got along for a couple of centuries in just the kind of healthy adversarial way you were describing earlier... I agree the Senate rules are nuts, but that does not mean it is okay to abuse them until they are fixed. Maybe a little here and little there, but what is going on now is positively absurd... destructively absurd.

One more piece to this puzzle that I find highly objectionable... The fact that the media can disseminate false information without any negative consequence. You have been saying (and demonstrating) that you thrive on good discussion with your adversaries. That kind of discussion is becoming very rare not only because it is easy to say (while frantically waving the first amendment) pretty much anything including grotesque distortions and bold face lies... AND because our populace has become lazy... seeking out people who will tell them what they want to hear (and don't confuse me with the facts) in short simple sound bites. How can we have any meaningful discussion in that kind of environment?????

  • 4 votes
#2.8 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:19 PM EDT
Just Neli

Mal:

Having ideologically coherent and competing major parties is good for the country.

Hear, hear!!

  • 2 votes
#2.9 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:22 AM EDT
Reply
littlereddog

That was a really excellent analysis, jfxgillis. Kudos to you. This is the kind of information that I wish we'd see more of on Newsvine.

I don't know how this country is going to make it through all of this division of ideology. As long as the media serves us a plate of ideology over thought provoking unadulterated news 24/7, I can't see how this will change. Until someone in the media grows a pair and begins confronting the sludge dished out daily on the tube, airwaves and the web, nothing will change. It's time like these that make me glad that I'm older. I'm not sure that I want to be around in 20 or 30 years. My regret is the legacy that we leave for our children.

  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:46 PM EDT
jfxgillis

little:

Thanks! Judging by your logon name, you must love the picture!

Ideology is good. Every other Western democracy has survived and thrived when they had a democracy that divided along somewhat (if not perfectly) rational lines based on ideology.

This is different, though:

Until someone in the media grows a pair and begins confronting the sludge dished out daily on the tube, airwaves and the web ....

because I regard that sludge as 99% non-ideological. It has as much to do with politics as Hannah Montana. Although, it turns out ....

  • 3 votes
#3.1 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:07 PM EDT
littlereddog

Another excellent seed, jfx. Of course I never saw it because the leading articles on Newsvine end up being largely tripe. I need to learn to track viners of intelligence and just ignore the "contributions" that just make my blood boil. Thus, I will put you on my watch list and humbly send a friend request as well - something I should have done long ago.

Yes indeed, I do love that doggie in the window, though the little red dog in my life is a cocker spaniel. ;)

  • 2 votes
#3.2 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:26 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lrd:

Thank you! But you don't have to humble .... Lord knows, I'm not!

My trick for navigating the flow of bull@!$%# is to do much of my entry to NV via watchlisted Group pages.

  • 4 votes
#3.3 - Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:33 PM EDT
Reply
mike lonkouski

You're a smart guy Jack, now all we have to do it get you on the same side as the "good guys" and maybe you can help us un-@!$%# this football.

Great political acumen, just aligned with the wrong group, come on over to the "Right" side of things Jack, the waters fine!

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:23 AM EDT
jfxgillis

mike:

Thanks!

come on over to the "Right" side of things Jack,

You'll have to bribe me. I'm a Democrat, remember?

:^{)>

  • 2 votes
#4.1 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:33 AM EDT
mike lonkouski

There is always room for a dissenting opinion in our camp, especially for someone who understand politics instead of just believing the lies of the body politic.

Either way, great article, and you didn't even have to sneak into any baseball games to write it!

  • 2 votes
#4.2 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:37 AM EDT
jfxgillis

mike:

I do have a streak of right-winger in me on things like English-first, but I couldn't go over because my views on political economy are so strong and so left.

  • 4 votes
#4.3 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:45 AM EDT
mike lonkouski

and I am a libertarian, and thereby a moderate (at least) on most social issues. So here we both are, stuck-in monochromatic political unions that do not reflect our ideals.

You and I deserve better, maybe instead of being in different political camps because of the two parties, we could just as easily be in the same party for what we agree upon.

It's good that intellectual adventurers, such as we are, encounter one another from time to time, to re-assure us that most of us really do have more in common than what separates us.

Now, let's get back into character and preach our respective party lines for our conjoined amusement!

  • 3 votes
#4.4 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:54 AM EDT
jfxgillis

mike:

I've always said politics is about "51%" from the results of elections in a continental nation-state down an individual's choice of which party to support. If one party offers you 51% of what you want and the other 49%, you go with the 51%.

If I lived in Germany I might be a Christian Democrat.

  • 3 votes
#4.5 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:02 AM EDT
Reply
mike lonkouski

It is funny when you go to a foreign country, and you are then forced to re-evaluate your political alignments, it can force one to question one's priorities.

  • 3 votes
Reply#5 - Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:32 AM EDT
Judge-574295Deleted
lisaed

Jack--it was Obama and largely his signature healthcare policy that sealed the fate of the blue dogs/moderates...and I agree with you. They're done. Their party is firmly way left of center. However, the country is still center right. Nevertheless, those blue dogs caved on all matters fiscal time and time and time again under pressure from their leadership---so those in lean right districts---John McCain districts are done (Rahm used them to win the majority in 2006 but yesterday this administration chewed them up and spit them out). And they know it. We saw this phenomenon playing out with the retirement announcement of Evan Bayh.....but even though electorally at least in the near term they are indeed done--that won't stop someone from trying to come out of the woodworks and run for the center that Obama et al particularly now given yesterday's (to quote Paul Ryan) "arrogant, paternalistic, and condescending" has vote effectively LOST. Obama may have won the House vote. But he has effectively lost the center. And that for me on the losing side of yesterday's historic vote is indeed a cause for celebration.

  • 2 votes
Reply#7 - Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:42 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

If you're right about all that, I'd still be good with all that. As long as I win the policy argument, losing the politics is fine.

The problem with the Blue Dogs is that their policy position is either non-existent or totally phony.

  • 2 votes
#7.1 - Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:48 PM EDT
lisaed

As long as I win the policy argument, losing the politics is fine.

Jack--I know that's your position---but from my side you know that your side has to lose on politics first before my side can fix this policy....at which time I sincerely hope you will also be losing the policy argument vis a vis demcare.

  • 1 vote
#7.2 - Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:09 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

Of course. But in 1994 you got to run against both a policy and political failure. Easy pickin's.

Now you not only have to win the election, you have to legislate subsequently.

  • 2 votes
#7.3 - Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:30 PM EDT
lisaed

Now you not only have to win the election, you have to legislate subsequently.

Jack---yes....that's what elections are all about...first things first.

  • 2 votes
#7.4 - Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:32 PM EDT
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