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JFXGILLIS

Correctly Political: Essays and Commentary
Articles Posted: 120  Links Seeded: 1512
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Correctly Political: "Corner"ing the Market in Catholic Teaching

Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:58 AM EDT
politics, vatican, pope-benedict-xvi, pope-john-paul-ii, benedict-xvi, big-shitpile, encyclical, caritas-in-veritate, catholic-doctrine, acton-institute, kathryn-lopez, k-lo, capitalis, george-weigel, jayabalan, pope-leo-xiii, wiegel
By jfxgillis

Pope Leo XIII. From the Portrait by Lenbach

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I. Now and Then and Now

Pope Benedict XVI issued an encyclical this week expressing Church doctrine with respect to the global political economy. I knew it would be described in the mainstream media as "left wing" (I knew it would be described in the mainstream media as "left wing" because I knew it would be left wing).


I therefore expected right-wing opinion outlets to either accept that description and criticize the document on those grounds, or, if those outlets were deluded or dishonest (as most of them are), to reject that description altogether and cry about media bias (like they do everytime an event occurs that provokes in them cognitive dissonance) or to somehow try to argue that Benedict's teaching was only superficially left-wing--that a close and deep reading by certain acolytes of a synecretic sect combining Libertarianism with Catholicism would reveal the gnosis that the New Testament (or the Old Testament, for that matter) and Atlas Shrugged are ideologically and textually compatible in each and every respect save the irrelevant detail of the existence of God.

In search of this latter category of right-wing opinion, my first stop was naturally National Review's group blog The Corner. And boy did I strike gold. The commentary there ran the gamut from deluded through incoherent all the way to staggeringly dishonest. Most amusing. But to understand the depth of depravity of those readings requires, as one would expect, familiarity with Church documents. To save you all from the reading the 450 pages of Papal writing from the three most significant encyclicals on political economy in the last century or so, I'll excerpt a few bits from each of them.

The first, Of New Things, was written by Pope Leo XIII and issued in 1891. It is in some cases anachronistic (in one portion he talks about the workplace evil of "mingling of the sexes"); although he spends much of the first part of the encyclical defending the notion of private property from the socialist credo that "property is theft," the entire second half amounts to nothing less than a full-throated defense of the trades union movement and the need for the State to compel Capital to accept collective bargaining on the part of Labor. Here he analyzes his contemporary political economy:

Public institutions and the laws set aside the ancient religion. Hence, by degrees it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men. To this must be added that the hiring of labor and the conduct of trade are concentrated in the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke little better than that of slavery itself.

In 1991, on the Hundredth Anniversary of Leo's encyclical, Pope John Paul II issued an encyclical called "On the Hundredth Anniversary." Writing in the still shimmering burst of the collapse of Soviet Socialism, again, like Leo, he spent a great deal of time summarizing those events and re-articulation his and the Church's rejection of Marxist-Leninism. But then, like Leo, he bespoke the contemporaneous political economy:

Here we find a new limit on the market: there are collective and qualitative needs which cannot be satisfied by market mechanisms. There are important human needs which escape its logic. There are goods which by their very nature cannot and must not be bought or sold. Certainly the mechanisms of the market offer secure advantages: they help to utilize resources better; they promote the exchange of products; above all they give central place to the person's desires and preferences, which, in a contract, meet the desires and preferences of another person. Nevertheless, these mechanisms carry the risk of an "idolatry" of the market, an idolatry which ignores the existence of goods which by their nature are not and cannot be mere commodities.

A hundred and thirty years counting as "recent" in the manner the Church keeps time, let us conclude this quick thumbnail of the Chuch's recent teachings on political economy by quoting Pope Benedict XVI's encyclical issued this week, "Charity in Truth."

It should be remembered that the reduction of cultures to the technological dimension, even if it favours short-term profits, in the long term impedes reciprocal enrichment and the dynamics of cooperation. It is important to distinguish between short- and long-term economic or sociological considerations. Lowering the level of protection accorded to the rights of workers, or abandoning mechanisms of wealth redistribution in order to increase the country's international competitiveness, hinder the achievement of lasting development. . . . [emphasis in original]

Economic activity cannot solve all social problems through the simple application of commercial logic. This needs to be directed towards the pursuit of the common good, for which the political community in particular must also take responsibility. Therefore, it must be borne in mind that grave imbalances are produced when economic action, conceived merely as an engine for wealth creation, is detached from political action, conceived as a means for pursuing justice through redistribution.

.

.

II. So Now Then

I anticipate objections claiming I ripped all those quotes out of context. "The Devil can cite Scripture," and so forth. Yeah, well: Go read that 450 pages of context. But secondly, that's not the point. The point is, those excerpts are positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably left-wing. It's dispositive. Definitive. If "left wing" means anything at all, it means what those Pontiffs said in those places. The worldview articulated there with respect to political economy cannot be wished away, ignored, diminished or altered by exegisis.

So what, pray tell, do the supposedly Catholic apologists for Capital have to say about all that? Kathryn Lopez at National Review started off by interviewing Kishore Jayabalan of the Acton Institute shortly after the Vatican released Benedict's teaching. He quoted some passage or other and drew this conclusion as his first judgement:

I take this to mean that [the Pope] is against the politicization of unions and especially against "closed" shops.

Are you kidding me? Jayabalan reads that encyclical and thinks the most important thing is that it means the Pope is a supporter of Section 14(b) of the Taft-Hartley Act? Is he deluded or dishonest, I wondered? So I clicked on the provided link and discovered to my astonishment that the Acton Institute is a think tank that that basically argues that the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and Ayn Rand's philosophy are perfectly compatible, well, except for a few details, as mentioned previously.

Okay. Deluded certainly. Insane, possibly.

So then I poked around some more and came across this reading of Benedict's encyclical by George Wiegel. He of course misread both the Then and the Now, claiming of John Paul II"s doctrine that he had argued:

. . . [P]overty in the Third World and within developed countries today is a matter of exclusion from global networks of exchange in a dynamic economy (which put the moral emphasis on strategies of wealth creation, empowerment of the poor, and inclusion), rather than a matter of First World greed in a static economy (which would put the moral emphasis on redistribution of wealth).

But such ridiculousness of a right-winger is to be expected. If there were a substantive difference between excluding the poor from wealth creation and redistribution of wealth he might have a point. But there isn't, so he doesn't. What was shocking, however, was the main thrust of his argument, which is the claim that Benedict didn't really write this new encyclical in full and that he doesn't really believe it all.

By some strange coincidence, according to Weigel, all the left-wing stuff in there is the responsibility of the The Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace:

Indeed, those with advanced degrees in Vaticanology could easily go through the text of Caritas in Veritate ["Charity in Truth"], highlighting those passages that are obviously Benedictine with a gold marker and those that reflect current Justice and Peace default positions with a red marker. The net result is, with respect, an encyclical that resembles a duck-billed platypus.

and all the right-wing stuff is the work of His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI.

Again. Are you kidding me? That argument reduces to the claim that Benedict is either incapable of exercising his authority over doctrine, or that he's dishonestly applying his insignia to doctrine which he in truth rejects. Weigel's argument is nothing less than an assault on Benedict's magesterium. Incredible. And for what? Just so Weigel can delay trying to resolve the cognitive dissonance between The Wall Street Journal's editorial stance and the teaching of the Church to which he claims adherence and obedience?

This cannot possibly be delusion. It must be dishonesty. Weigel is too smart, too educated, too steeped in Churchly thinking not to have deliberately offered a proposition that he himself knows is unsustainable except in the minds of the semi-educated semi-sophisticates of his National Review readership.

Kathryn Lopez seemed to have some trouble reading or digesting it all, because she spent most of the week quoting others' comments about it. The two men quoted here are especially ignornant, but what else would you expect from a couple of Republican members of the United States House of Representatives, including the Minority Leader John Boehner. (the other is Thaddeus McCotter of Michigan). This is the part that's most amusingly idiotic:

Caritas in Veritate is not a political document, but rather a complex work that warrants careful and thoughtful contemplation by American Catholics and non-Catholics alike at this time of economic anxiety.

How stupid, deluded or dishonest can you get? Pope Benedict says himself it's a political in part. Glory Be, in the most-quoted passage of the encyclical, Benedict calls for a new global political institution, in effect, a regime of global capital controls. You can say a lot of things about that, argue for or against or whatever, but the one thing you cannot say is that it's not "political." Of course it's political. The problem the House Republicans face, though, is that it's not House Republican politics.

.

.

III. Then Now What?

To be fair, though God knows why anyone should be fair, there seems to be some walking back of this right-wing exegesis in the last few days. When Kathryn Lopez herself finally commented, she lamely suggested that maybe "Charity in Truth" wasn't as left-wing as left-wingers thought. Yeah. Okay. We knew that. It's not important that it wasn't as left-wing as we left-wingers thought. What's significant is that it wasn't as right-wing as the loud and ideologically blinded right-wing Catholics thought.

And to be even fairer, occasional National Review contributor Raymond Arroyo discussed the new Encyclical on "The World Over," his EWTN news program on Friday night. His two guests were Father Robert Sirico, President of the aforementioned Acton Institute, and Father David O'Connell, President of the Catholic University of America. Strikingly, in response to a live caller asking about Weigel's article in National Review (I wish it was me but it wasn't) Father Sirico, quite explicitly and unambiguously condemned Weigel's argument. Two "Our Fathers" and five "Hail Marys" for Weigel, I guess! And I'll give due credit to Sirico for being honest there; it must have killed him to smackdown his pal Weigel in public.

On balance, then, I'll judge Sirico deluded rather than dishonest, although it seems as if the reality of the text is seeping in to him, so the veil of delusion is perhaps lifting. We did hear variations of the same "it's not political" case made by Boehner and McCotter. And the Catholic right seems to be clutching desperately to those passages in the encyclical in which Benedict directly connects the life and family issues of abortion and marriage to the political economy envisioned elsewhere in the text.

Whatever gets you through the night, I guess, but I don't know what the Catholic right-wingers expected left-wingers to expect from a document bearing the imprimatur of the Holy See. Did they think we'd think the Pope wasn't against abortion anymore? Or that he'd change his mind about gay marriage? We know the Pope is against abortion and gay marriage. Is the Pope Catholic? Does a bear ...?

It's not left-wingers having to wrap their minds around the Church's traditional teaching on life and family that's the hard part. That's easy. We get that. We've been hearing it for decades now. It's right-wingers having to wrap their minds around the Church's new teaching on political economy that seems to be the hard part.

They don't have a monopoly on Church doctrine anymore.

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jfxgillis

I don't get this "It's not a political document, it's a moral document" argument. Can it not be both?

Basically, that's just a righty excuse for using religious arguments to outlaw abortion but not to do anything about redistribution.

  • 13 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:02 AM EDT
lisaed

Jack---we'll just use my pope for our own political purposes and you can use him for yours....kay? Isn't that the way it's always been?

  • 7 votes
#1.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:40 AM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

Deal.

  • 7 votes
#1.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:47 AM EDT
E.D.Kain

Lisa, that's probably the most honest statement I've heard so far. Snarky, yeah, but basically the truth.

  • 4 votes
#1.3 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
lisaed

E.D.---thanks......yes, I've been feeling pretty snarky lately....I know it's not becoming to my formerly charming reputation (I've had a bad cold....maybe touch of flu so I'll blame it on that for now).

  • 4 votes
#1.4 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:20 AM EDT
Reply
Smiling Jack

The Catholic Church perfectly represents the idea of "social conservatism" today. As such, it must also be in opposition to perfect fiscal conservatism as most of the right wing people I know believe in it.

It's only natural therefore that many right wing thinkers have to pretend that there is no schism at all. The key to republican control in this country has been based on stitching together several groups which are fundamentally opposed in certain areas. In the end though, they will stick together over abortion.

  • 9 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:13 AM EDT
jfxgillis

Smiling:

In the end though, they will stick together over abortion.

Oddly enough, I think that's less true for the Catholic electorate. The hierarchy and/or elites, yeah. But for just yer average everyday Catholic Joe or Jane, I don't think abortion is as single issue as for yer average everyday evangelical Joe or Jane.

  • 9 votes
#2.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:28 AM EDT
lisaed

Jack---in some of the Catholic polls I've read---it seems as though there is less consistency of thought re: things like civil unions/gay marriage than abortion where there is much more consensus of opinion.

  • 5 votes
#2.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:36 AM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

That comports with my personal experience with my students. I was quite surprised not at how they were opposed or in support of gay marriage, but how little they cared. 18-24-year-olds look at that as something old people care about.

Abortion's a different story, but I still think for Catholics is not as much the one overriding issue that will always change their vote. Seems like it's a necessary but not sufficent component of heir decision.

  • 6 votes
#2.3 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:22 PM EDT
Reply
caltha-palustris

Jack,

I was amazed when I saw this headline, on a commodities blog! All the world, including Pope Benedict, is clamoring for tighter commodities/derivatives trading regulations - that is except US financial traders. Hell in a hand-basket, I say. <em> Just ask the Pope. God is telling him so. </em>

Great article.

  • 7 votes
Reply#3 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:48 AM EDT
jfxgillis

caltha:

Thanks!

All the world, including Pope Benedict, is clamoring for tighter commodities/derivatives trading regulations

Just so. Which is why this stuff about the encyclical being "not political" is so damn silly. If it's "not political" then I guess the Minority Leader of the House will just go right along with Benedict's teaching, right?

  • 8 votes
#3.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:32 AM EDT
gladbutterfly

Those who think this encyclical is not political should consider the following:

there is urgent need of a true world political authority, as my predecessor Blessed John XXIII indicated some years ago. Such an authority would need to be regulated by law, to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity, to seek to establish the common good[147], and to make a commitment to securing authentic integral human development inspired by the values of charity in truth. Furthermore, such an authority would need to be universally recognized and to be vested with the effective power to ensure security for all, regard for justice, and respect for rights[148]. Obviously it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the coordinated measures adopted in various international forums. Without this, despite the great progress accomplished in various sectors, international law would risk being conditioned by the balance of power among the strongest nations. The integral development of peoples and international cooperation require the establishment of a greater degree of international ordering, marked by subsidiarity, for the management of globalization[149]. They also require the construction of a social order that at last conforms to the moral order, to the interconnection between moral and social spheres, and to the link between politics and the economic and civil spheres, as envisaged by the Charter of the United Nations.

Benedict is interlinking the economic, cultural, and political orders with the moral order, which, he argues, should provide the armature upon and within which the other spheres operate. His view is, interestingly, in accordance with G.B. Madison's The Political Economy of Civil Society and Human Rights, which also links the moral-cultural orders, while this encyclical puts special emphasis on the moral order and its rationale, since it seems to have been forgotten.

  • 4 votes
#3.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:01 PM EDT
caltha-palustris

Jack,

I "doan" think so. They're also the first ones clamoring for an "immigration policy", a private insurance based "health plan", and rejection of Card Check.

Gladbutterfly,

Excellent references!

  • 3 votes
#3.3 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:56 PM EDT
jfxgillis

caltha:

They're also the first ones clamoring for an "immigration policy" .....

Oooooh. Glad you mentioned that. Benedict also mentions a generous immigration policy somewhere in there. I wonder if that's "political."?

  • 4 votes
#3.4 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:06 PM EDT
lisaed

Jack---and Jeb (I love him) is picking up the immigration issue.....good for him. PS----on another note I see Obama and Catholic Church are not in alignment re: Honduras.....

  • 4 votes
#3.5 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:36 AM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

Obama and Catholic Church are not in alignment re: Honduras.....

I'm actually surprised and disappointed at the Church for that. As I pointed out on one of the Honduras threads, even the conservative and/or right-wing governments in the OAS signed on against the coup. It's one thing to charge (accurately) that Cuba and Venezulea are againt the coup. But why are Coloumbia and Peru against it?

  • 3 votes
#3.6 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:30 AM EDT
lisaed

Jack---couldn't tell ya why Columbia and Peru are against it----but I'll go with the Church side on this one (not that I view them primarily as a political animal). As the below article states obama is wrong wrong wrong about honduras:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/07/13/obama_is_wrong_wrong_wrong_about_honduras_97427.html

  • 3 votes
#3.7 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:54 AM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

couldn't tell ya why Columbia and Peru are against it

It has to do with the transfer of power by way of democratic norms notwithstanding the ideological makep of any given government, either left or right, of any given place.

  • 4 votes
#3.8 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:31 PM EDT
lisaed

Jack----it comes off as a defense of Zelaya....is that not what it is? Is Zelaya defensible in your book?

  • 3 votes
#3.9 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:42 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

Zelaya is irrelevant. Do you not think that the center-right governments of Peru and Columbia would rather a lefty like he lose an election than win? So why are they backing him? Answer: Because they believe the architecture of democracy is more important than any single result of democracy.

That's why I was surprised the Church came down as it has. If the OAS was unanimous, and it was, the Church should've just adopted that position.

  • 5 votes
#3.10 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:05 PM EDT
lisaed

Jack---with all due respect---why should the Church take its marching orders from anyone? And Zelaya is relevant---because it was his action that was counter to the "architecture of democracy".

  • 2 votes
#3.11 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:27 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

why should the Church take its marching orders from anyone?

They shouldn't. If they want to provoke echoes of a time when the Church would back any old fascist military dictator so long as he was nominally "Catholic," that's their business. I just found it surprising given the unanimity of the nations in the region.

  • 4 votes
#3.12 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:03 PM EDT
ffeineandsugar

I had to work for it, but I dug up some of the immigration quotes from the encyclical:

In the encyclical the Holy Father welcomes the help that immigrants provide, with these thoughts: "As you know, (immigration) is complex to manage, however, foreign workers, despite the difficulties inherent in integration, contribute significantly thorugh their work to economic development of the host country and to their country of origin through remittances.

"Obviously, these workers can not be regarded as a mere commodity or labor force. Therefore they should not be treated as just another factor of production. Every immigrant is a human person, as such, has inalienable rights to be respected by all and in any situation. "

Now what is going to happen when quotes like these are brought forth from the pulpits in Middle America? My hope is that we'll see some maturing, but my fear is that some opportunistic Elmer Gantry types will (conspiracy theorists: with far-right funding?) try to siphon off the strength and take people on a hate cruise. The question I have is how do we teach this truth? Ideas?

Oh, and I agree with you, Lisa and Jack: the Church shouldn't take its marching orders from anyone except Christ. If only everyone realized this simple idea.

  • 4 votes
#3.13 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:36 PM EDT
jfxgillis

ffein:

Thanks for scouting that up; I kinda lost track of it in the mountain of text.

I think what's going to happen is that the Beltway Repubs will simply ignore those statements, and the grass-roots conservatives won't hear about 'em.

  • 4 votes
#3.14 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:46 PM EDT
Reply
caltha-palustris

Also, according to an article by Stacy Meichtry, WSJ Pope Paul VI published the encyclical Populorum Progressio. Benedict's encyclical initially was set to be published to coincide with the 40th anniversary of Pope Paul's Populorum Progressio.

My initial reaction to this: Hooray for Benedict. I can find some common ground with him. This is in keeping with social justice doctrine the Church has been actively teaching since Pope Paul VI and the Second Vatican Council. I had almost left a comment on your seed last week to that effect.

  • 6 votes
Reply#4 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:06 AM EDT
jfxgillis

caltha:

Pope Paul VI published the encyclical Populorum Progressio.

Grrrrrrrr. You would cite that. I knew I should've read that but I hit my limit of Papal encyclicals after three. I'll try to get Paul VI's read in the next couple of days.

And heck, the Social Gospel/Christian Socialism predates Paul VI. Dorothy Day, etc., even Leo, as I show.

  • 6 votes
#4.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:37 AM EDT
lisaed

Jack---after all this papal reading are you ready to rejoin our flock?

  • 7 votes
#4.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:39 AM EDT
caltha-palustris

Jack @ #4.1

Sorry to cause you exasperation.

Actually, Benedict really isn't saying anything new or improved from an historic perspective of Church teachings leading all the way to the Pauline Letters.

I was merely noting that before Pope Paul VI, the Liturgy was spoken in Latin. It had taken nearly 2000 years in Church history (and thankfully, via Paul's Second Vatican Council, which Benedict was also participant) to teach the Liturgy of the Word and the true meaning in Ubi caritas, est vera. Deus ibi est - to the huddled, unwashed, masses of Sunday "bench warmers" in the spoken language of the day and not Latin.

I'm not surprised there are still hold-outs who want to find their own interpretation of Catholic social teaching. They are probably the same individuals who would wish to revert to the Latin Mass, and an Alter with its back to the "faithful" again.

  • 5 votes
#4.3 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:14 AM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

after all this papal reading are you ready to rejoin our flock?

Sure, but for that one minor detail I mentioned in the article about the existence of God.

:^{)>

Did I ever tell you what a family friend/priest told me when I was scouting grad schools twenty years ago and pondered the seminary?

  • 4 votes
#4.4 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:58 PM EDT
jfxgillis

caltha:

Actually, Benedict really isn't saying anything new or improved from an historic perspective of Church teachings leading all the way to the Pauline Letters.

True that. Even further. My NT link goes to Matt: 25 and my OT link goes to Mal: 3.

  • 4 votes
#4.5 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:18 PM EDT
lisaed

Sure, but for that one minor detail I mentioned in the article about the existence of God.

Jack---that's a pity. And I mean that sincerely. And no, I don't recall your having shared that story with me......can you here? You pondered the seminary? That is a story I'd love to hear....how long since you decided God does not exist?

One other comment----too many just assume that all Catholics are alike that we all feel the same way about abortion, gay marriage, embryonic stem cells and the like.....nothing could be further from the truth. I don't even know why people care about the Catholic vote anymore......it's far from homogenous these days. It feels much more independent than rightwing to this naval gazer.

  • 5 votes
#4.6 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:21 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

I was scouting grad schools, as I mentioned, and over a kitchen table with a priest and couple of other regular folks I mentioned that I was pondering the seminary except that I didn't believe in God.

Priest says "Not a dealbreaker!"

After we all laughed he explained that, really, it wasn't a dealbreaker. It was a gamble for the Church. If you didn't believe by the end of the program, they wasted an education; if you did, they got a priest.

I don't even know why people care about the Catholic vote anymore......

Basically, it's an easy pigeonhole for old-timey political handicappers who harken back to the day when the Catholic vote was more monolithic (25 years ago for the Republicans, 50 years ago for the Democrats).

  • 5 votes
#4.7 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:52 PM EDT
caltha-palustris

Jack,

I imagine it still isn't a "deal breaker" within the Church, as the priesthood is in dire straits with regard to priest Ordination. There was a plea (maybe 15 years ago) that perhaps married men would qualify, as it stands now the Church is passing on many duties (aside from sacramental rites) on to parish deacons.

  • 5 votes
#4.8 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:18 PM EDT
E.D.Kain

Married Anglican/Episcopal priests who convert to Catholicism remain married and can be priests in the Catholic Church...

  • 4 votes
#4.9 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:32 PM EDT
Reply
lisaed

Jack---what is your intent here? To call republican Catholics such as myself hypocrites? Finding our way within church theology and papal teachings is our problem, not yours. And there is this little thing called separation of church and state that does come into play here in America. I find it interesting that you focus exclusively on the fact that Popes economically speaking are generally way to the left of many rightwing Catholics in the United States. So was Jesus. What' s your point? The only interesting thing coming out of Obama's meeting with the Pope to me was the Pope's gift to Obama re: Bioethics. Why are you silent on that? The White House spin was how this papal visit undid all the hoopla of conservative Catholics at Notre Dame....it did not. Obama looked stiff and uncomfortable in the Pope's presence....wonder why? The Pope is the moral authority of the Catholic Church and to a large extent to world....while Obama just thinks he is.

  • 3 votes
#5 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:16 AM EDT
Truth Hurts-840829

the pope is the worlds moral authority?

beware of the sheep in wolfs clothing as he is also the shepard.

  • 3 votes
#5.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:25 AM EDT
lisaed

Truth---I said to a large extent---should have said certain extent.....but I didn't say it either way as a fully definitive statement. Don't rewrite me.

  • 4 votes
#5.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:38 AM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

Hypocrites? No, not really. For a few of the big-time pundits/writers like George Weigel, yeah, but for the vast majority of American Catholic Republicans, no, I don't think you're hypocrites.

Basically, I simply think American Catholic Republicans have the same problem American Catholic Democrats like Nancy Pelosi and John Kerry have--you just pick different dishes for your cafeteria tray.

The only interesting thing coming out of Obama's meeting with the Pope to me was the Pope's gift to Obama re: Bioethics.

I didn't write about Obama at all. I was silent about it because I wasn't writing about him or his audeince with the Pope.

  • 8 votes
#5.3 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:46 AM EDT
lisaed

Jack---okay---but I guess what I was trying to say was it would have beeen interesting for me to hear your take on the obama/Papal visit.....

  • 4 votes
#5.4 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

Reading around, I can't see that anything truly substantive came out of it. But those images were pretty intriguing. It was almost medieval in the way that it gave the appearance of two statesmen treating. Benedict was so much shorter yet carried himself as Obama's peer.

  • 3 votes
#5.5 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:14 PM EDT
lisaed

Jack---well having had the blessing to have been in Pope Benedict's presence myself I can say firsthand that his stature in no way confines his unbelievable presence---which is of course to me---much more spiritual than it is physical.

  • 4 votes
#5.6 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:24 PM EDT
caltha-palustris

I was most perplexed by Michelle's black chapel veil.

Do women still cover their heads in the Vatican? Italy? Did Michelle and Obama have a private Mass with the Pope? And, isn't a traditional mantilla made from lace?

It seemed to me, very antiquated. I thought we threw out our "chapel caps" when SVII came into being.

  • 6 votes
#5.7 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:22 PM EDT
spiffie

According to this Wiki article, the mantilla hasn't been mandatory since the 1980s, although this article suggests that there's been a recent upswing in its use since Benedict came to power. Given the obvious coordination in the G8 leaders' spouses' use of the mantilla this past visit, I wouldn't be surprised if Benedict's protocol officer(s) didn't "humbly suggest" traditional garb for the visit.

  • 4 votes
#5.8 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:36 PM EDT
jfxgillis

caltha:

And, isn't a traditional mantilla made from lace?

Hate to sound like an ignorant male, but from the images I saw on tv I thought it was lace. Did I miss something?

  • 5 votes
#5.9 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:55 PM EDT
caltha-palustris

Someone need tell American women in the parish of which I was a member between 1993 and 1999. In all recent Masses I've attended since then, no woman (or girl) that I've have noticed, wears a chapel veil. I must be missing this trend in resurrecting old Catholic traditions.

And, spiffie, btw... I am offended by the Church's traditional position, and Pope Benedict's, conservative interpretation of women's roles in the church, as well as subtle changes he has made to congregational responses in the Order of the Mass.

Then again... he's never going to get me to return to the foal. But, hey...technically I've been excommunicated...sorry...I've digressed from the thread...my bad.

  • 5 votes
#5.10 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:07 PM EDT
caltha-palustris

Jack,

From the HuffPost pics, it looked like taffetta...and longer than I remember chapel veils...but I didn't look that closely at minute detail...noticed the length, and how odd it seemed...haven't seen women in chapel veils since before my First Holy Communion, 40 some odd years ago.

  • 5 votes
#5.11 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:52 PM EDT
jfxgillis

caltha:

LAUGH!! There's a difference between taffeta and lace? Who knew?

But I suppose if you look at the get-up on those Swiss Guards, I suppose feminine attire that's only a hundred years old is downright fashionable.

Anyway, I thought Michelle looked downright regal in that gear. Elizabeth Rex.

  • 5 votes
#5.12 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:16 PM EDT
caltha-palustris

Yes, Jack. There is.

Tafetta v. Lace.

I'm sure she couldn't wait to take off the headress, a.s.a.p. It's hard to read her expressions, especially as she was rounding the limo to the driver's side. Loved the picture of Sasha's feet as the car door was opened for Michelle. Refreshing to see a thrilled grade-schooler in the WH...not since the days of Amy Carter.

  • 5 votes
#5.13 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:50 PM EDT
lisaed

caltha--5.7---I thought Michele's veil looked absolutely ridiculous. She could have worn something on her head for respect--but that? She looked like she was escorting Zorro not President of United States.

  • 4 votes
#5.14 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:40 AM EDT
lisaed

Caltha 5.3----I remember when Amy was in the White House and the Keane Brothers wrote a pop song for her---member it? "Amy (Show the World you're there)".......I was absolutely in love with the both of those boys. Used to write in my diary about them.....ah, to be a teeny bopper again. Anyhow---word had it the boys sent their album to Amy and she had to return it. Sigh.

  • 4 votes
#5.15 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:47 AM EDT
caltha-palustris

Lisa,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it looked ridiculous. (I think she may have hated the look, too, by the look on her face) AND THAT BOW! Dear God in Heaven.

  • 4 votes
#5.16 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:49 AM EDT
caltha-palustris

No, I don't recall the song - but one of my older brothers kept a can of Billy Beer - for collectible value. {chuckle} Dumb teenage boys.

btw: I think Sasha is just adorable, her enthusiasm is infectious, especially when I glimpse her photos. And, I also think the world of Michelle.

  • 5 votes
#5.17 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:55 AM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

I thought Michele's veil looked absolutely ridiculous.

!!!!!!!

It's a traditional garment for women in church, is it not? Is that not also the headress worn by the Mona Lisa?

Let's put it another way. It was either the veil of something like Malia's tee shirt. Which would you prefer?

:^{)>

  • 3 votes
#5.18 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:37 AM EDT
lisaed

Jack---puhleeze-----I'm sure Michelle had any number of options to put upon her head......I didn't like it. And I agree with Caltha---the look on her face indicated to me that she was clearly uncomfortable in it.

  • 3 votes
#5.19 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:55 AM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

If that's the case--and it may well be--then I guess it's the fault of the two protocol offices who no doubt negotiated it all.

Here's Laura Bush's headdress for her Papal audience (series here), although from other news photos it appears she removed it for the informal photo ops afterwards. Better or worse headcover in your estimation?

  • 2 votes
#5.20 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:41 PM EDT
caltha-palustris

Jack,

A lace veil, barely brushing the shoulder is traditional Catholic headress (hell, nuns don't even wear "the veil" any longer - why should American First Ladies).

A lace veil probably would have looked one hundred times better than the bolt of black fabric Mrs. Obama was forced to wear. She looked like she was attending JFK's funeral, for goodness sakes.

For all the hoopla over Muslim women and burkas, it seems rather a subordinate position for the Vatican to place upon modern women; whether it's First Ladies Laura Bush, and Michelle Obama or Angela Merkel (photo without a chapel veil).

  • 4 votes
#5.21 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:22 PM EDT
lisaed

caltha---5.17----oh, well....you asked for it.....the love of my life in 1977---and his (of course Tom was my favorite) song for the first daughter---Amy Carter.....ladies and gentlemen: The Keane Brothers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xs070kBFnA&feature=related

  • 3 votes
#5.22 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:07 PM EDT
caltha-palustris

Lisa,

Funny. I guess I was too wrapped up in my teenage crush for this guy, wishing I could be a back-up singer in his band.

The Keane Brothers were way too young for me.

  • 2 votes
#5.23 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:30 PM EDT
Reply
caltha-palustris

Two "Our Fathers" and five "Hail Marys" for Weigel,

And, to which I'll add: An Act of Contrition!

  • 7 votes
Reply#6 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:39 AM EDT
E.D.Kain

Cross-posted, by the way...

  • 4 votes
Reply#7 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:16 AM EDT
jfxgillis

E.D.

Thanks! Sorry I haven't hit that thread yet; I'll get over there in an hour or so.

  • 4 votes
#7.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:03 PM EDT
Reply
ffeineandsugar

Phew - too much to digest in too short a time. I'm sorry I missed this one yesterday!

I think the one thing that strikes me more than anything else is the cafeteria analogy. Everyone wants to pick and choose. But do we really get the full guidance on the Churches' teachings here in the pews? I'm blessed that the priest who says mass at the time I attend tries to emphasize both the social teachings and the moral teachings of the church, and isn't afraid to get political or controversial. (After retiring from a pastorship at an inner city parish, he feels free to let loose and he is appreciated by the 5:30 crowd. But I'm sure the Blue Army feels uncomfortable at times.) But how many Catholics are even aware of the new encyclical, let alone its contents? Any thoughts on how to change this situation?

And no, I'm not going to comment on the media, no matter what stripe it comes from. We all know that there is an intellectually barren land.

  • 4 votes
Reply#8 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:19 AM EDT
jfxgillis

ffein:

But how many Catholics are even aware of the new encyclical, let alone its contents? Any thoughts on how to change this situation?

Send them a link to this article.

:^{)>

Seriously and truly, the only way to change that is very much what you just described. The Church at its grass-roots level has to press it. In fact, by the rule of "subsidiarity" (which I think is mentioned in all three of the documents I quoted), that's what should happen. The Ponitiff can propound the teaching, but only the priests and parishoners can promulgate it.

  • 4 votes
#8.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:09 PM EDT
E.D.Kain

Oh, the Church needs to start practicing subsidiarity itself - that's the problem. I think a strong center is fine - the Pope, as a leader, is fine - but the control needs to be decentralized. I don't see it happening anytime soon - that was the thrust of Vatican II and the way things were supposed to go, but power was once again fiercely centralized under JPII and now Benedict. Which is the nature of power, of course.

  • 5 votes
#8.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:22 PM EDT
ffeineandsugar

Thanks, guys. I missed this when I responded to another thought up at 3.13. And E.D., I'm thinking you're right - the curia is as stubborn as any bureaucracy in their own special way. But at least B16 is lightening the reins in some ways: more later.

  • 3 votes
#8.3 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:09 PM EDT
Reply
velma dinkley

Why is that pope smiling?

  • 3 votes
Reply#9 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:19 PM EDT
jfxgillis

velma:

Dunno.

But you can see the smile even better in the Obamacized image of Pope Leo I made for this article. I think it came out great but it grossly undercut the tone of the polemic I had in mind, so I ditched it.

  • 5 votes
#9.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:07 PM EDT
velma dinkley

It would have been better if it had said "Pope Hope." He also needed to be looking up toward the heavens.

  • 3 votes
#9.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:02 PM EDT
Reply
iconoclasm

It's a good and detailed analysis.

I prefer to look at the Christan branch of religions with a borader brush.

Colonialism came out of western Europe so we set aside Eastern Orthodox and that history since Western Europe came to be dominated by Rome.

This make Catholicism the center. Protestant were originally left of center. By the 17th century religion was on the retreat. In the 18th it made a comeback but Catholic was still center and Protestant was still left. Then came the 1950s. The birth of fundamentalism. So now you have two Protestant groups some when farther left and others flew past the centrist Catholics to the right.

I don't mean to belittle atheism, Islam, Eastern Orthodox, or any other group. It's a mere matter of numbers not "worth".

What we consider center is based on Catholicism and Protestant is at the left and the right. Have you ever heard of a European Christan Fundamentalist? No? Is it possible that fundamentalism breeds where religion is high and education is low? Don't Europeans considers the center more than a bit to the left than we do? I assume that the Catholic Church is considered Right-wing there and not center nor left. Is the country becoming centrist because of the legal and other immigration from the south which trends Catholic?

I'm getting off topic but

Thurgood Marshall - 1967

Obama - 2008

Sotomayor - 2009

A Latina that is 6 years old now president in 2050. Hopefully people will stop keeping score long before then.

It's not a matter of math really, it's a matter of population. You can redirect cultural influence for a time but it is only temporary. The last 100 years or so will be know as the second European immigration or something.

  • 4 votes
Reply#10 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:12 PM EDT
jfxgillis

icon:

Thank you!

Don't Europeans considers the center more than a bit to the left than we do? I assume that the Catholic Church is considered Right-wing there and not center nor left.

Well, the center-right party in most European countries that's nevertheless committed to welfare-state policies structurally if not in every detail is the "Christian Democrats," right?

However, I don't agree completely about the recent emergence of a Right Protestantism. There was always a fundamentalist variation of American conservativism. Consider the Great Awakening of the 1840s apposite the rise of Trancendentalism in the very same period. The Scopes Trial of the 1920s.

  • 3 votes
#10.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:24 PM EDT
iconoclasm

There was always a fundamentalist variation of American conservatism. Consider the Great Awakening of the 1840s apposite the rise of Transcendentalism in the very same period. The Scopes Trial of the 1920s.

Well religion ebbs and flowsover the generations as much as atheists want it gone and as much a the religious think that 100% will subscribe to their worldview.

The awakening(s) were what we might consider today Protestant left or maybe even centrist. It was religiousbut the 1840s one was anti-slavery. That's were it get very confusing between anti-slavery being a "conservative" concept with the way both parties have flipped flopped on matters of equality.

In a way is was conservative as going back to enlightenment principles but if you mention enlightenment to the right today it doesn't seem to click anymore. The left refuses to recognise the enlightenment was an attempt by the religious to get a handle on how religion can run amok. It's sad how religious people that can reason in common with athesists have become a matter of myth. But that didn't even make good journalism in the 18th century.

Scopes was a Luddite stimulus response from all religion. I can't imagine something that would shock as much today unless extra terrestrials appeared and mentioned over tea that they seeded mankind or something. It was definitely conservative but more out of shock.

So yes, I only referenced the "anti-communist in a can" circa 1950s right which was a backlash of a world going far far left. This is the tree that casts in roots back to those other times in it's own version of history with branches that still swat us today. And that's when the Catholics were generally accepted in the population. They had immigrated earlier and gained respect over the decades. Leading to a Catholic President (oh did people thought the country was going to be under a Roman NWO on that one). I think this period is key as we formed the opinion of how ethnic cleansing can get horrid beyond reckoning but "godless communism" was not our way either. So we made the middle then. I don't know what will reset it.

It's hard to tell when the next wave will come since it's just as hard to tell when the previous one is over. I am hopeful it will be a centrist awakening that will shed and shun anti-science and anti-diversity. I know atheists don't believe that possible with fundamentalismbeing in high fashion these days but it's not impossible. And fundamentalist really don't think to a future past their personal ascension.

  • 2 votes
#10.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:33 PM EDT
ffeineandsugar

It's not a matter of math really, it's a matter of population. You can redirect cultural influence for a time but it is only temporary. The last 100 years or so will be know as the second European immigration or something.

And the times we live in will be known (I suspect) as the death rattle of Europe. A simple look at the birth rates would be a good place to start:

Nation Birth Rate Death Rate

Belgium 12.3 12.3
Czech 9.0 10.6
France 11.9 9.2
Germany 8.2 10.7
Italy 8.5 10.5
Norway 11.3 9.4
Poland 9.9 9.9
Portugal 10.6 10.6
Romania 10.7 11.8
UK 10.7 10.1
USA 14.2 8.3

Hmmm. Of the countries on this list, only France and Norway are showing more than a little bit of growth. None are showing the livelihood of the USA. I've been curious for some time about the link between population, growth, and religiosity. I CAN say this much: the figures for China and Japan aren't any better. It all spells demographic suicide. And yet the USA is not looking at this same scenario. (btw: figures in places like New England are lower, similar to France or such. Figures in the South and Midwest are higher. The highest? Utah. Osmonds Uber Alles?) And of course, there is the true 21st century home of the Church, Latin America. There the demography is still positive. (And btw, why do you think the Islamic numbers are going up still? It isn't warriors, it's wombs. Numbers on request).

  • 2 votes
#10.3 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:13 PM EDT
iconoclasm

ffeineandsugar great perspective.

  • 3 votes
#10.4 - Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:20 AM EDT
gedanken_1

A simple look at the birth rates would be a good place to start:

Actually, the lowering birth rate is related to the spread of capitalism and the resultant migration of people from agriculture communities to industrial cities.

The exceptions are countries that have high immigration from the third-world.

  • 2 votes
#10.5 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:37 PM EDT
ffeineandsugar

I didn't say the two were directly causal. However, there is a correlation. And you dodged the true implication of the question, which is why that same lower birth rate is so much more extreme in the irreligious communities than in places like the USA. To blithely ignore this piece of data is to miss the entire point of the exercise. While the immigration issue is a possible solution, it is just that: a possible answer. Even factoring for that group, American birthrates are still outsized compared with European ones.

  • 1 vote
#10.6 - Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
gedanken_1

Immigration is the largest factor contributing to population growth in the U.S. It contributes over 2.25 million people to the U.S. population annually plus 750,000 births to immigrant woman annually. The total foreign-born population in the U.S. is now 31.1 million, a record 57% increase since 1990.

overall U.S. fertility is slightly less than replacement level and has not exceeded replacement level since 1972.

  • 2 votes
#10.7 - Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:29 PM EDT
ffeineandsugar

Replacement level for fertility is 2.1 children per women (averaged out.) As of 2007, the rate for the US was 2.12, slightly above replacement rate. Immigration is still a source of growth for our nation also. But none of this speaks to the point, which you still haven't addressed - why the disparity between observed fertility in the USA and that in Europe, and what does the apparent demographic suicide of that continent mean? I'm still waiting for your response to the big question behind the curtain....

  • 2 votes
#10.8 - Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:56 AM EDT
Reply
gedanken_1

Correctly Political: "Corner"ing the Market in Catholic Teaching

Most so-called "Catholics" are self-serving hypocrites. They might as well be voodoo worshipers.

Sunday mass often reminds me that Pope and I are the last of the Papists.

  • 2 votes
Reply#11 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:18 AM EDT
jazzman646

The Fellowship of the Believers

42They devoted themselves to the apostle's teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 2:42-47

gillis,

The passage above from the, Book of Acts, is the model for the Church, and the mandate of Christianity for a stance of social and economic justice.

Since you already identified and acknowledge the true source of your misuse of what the Pope stated, and your movement in general:

("The Devil can cite Scripture," )

I don't see a need to go there. But what you need to know is that it is definitely not leftist in the sense you want to disingenuously portray it to be here, because it can never be accomplished with any true success, by man outside of and not under the sustained influence of the Spirit of God, who you made sure to dismissin your article as being'"irrelevant" (thanks for the laugh with that!)

Leftists created the great Soviet Union and abolished capitalism under it, but also abolished the worship of God along with it, and the Soviet Union has collapsed and failed (or if you want to look at it from a Christian point of view - God destroyed it).

The same will happen to this new socialist secular humanist movement sweeping the Western world.

The model of socialism revealed to us by the first Christians in Acts was truly radical in its time, but was all inclusive of God, and not disdainful and dismissing of Him.

  • 5 votes
Reply#12 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:37 AM EDT
jfxgillis

jazz:

I don't disagree. Seriously. All you're doing is basically rephrasing the "cafeteria Catholic" charge, which is fine--indeed, accurate. It's not wrong, it's just boring. Heard it before for decades, as I said above. I'm Guilty. If I lose Pascal's Wager, I'll go to hell and you won't.

However, the point of this article is to show that proponents of lassiez faire Capitalism are likewise guilty, which is why I made sure to include that quote from JPII about market idolatry.

  • 5 votes
#12.1 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:59 PM EDT
lisaed

proponents of lassiez faire Capitalism

jack--how exactly would you define that? Anyone who does not support Obama's economic policy?

  • 3 votes
#12.2 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:29 PM EDT
jazzman646

However, the point of this article is to show that proponents of lassiez faire Capitalism are likewise guilty, which is why I made sure to include that quote from JPII about market idolatry.

On that I don't disagree.

I think the Pope's intended message crosses all political lines, but probably stings those on the right more who profess a belief in God ( remembering there are many Conservatives who don't...or Protestants who feel they can pick and choose to support what Catholics may come up with...in the belief they are basically flawed...and only get it right now and then).

You focused on some reaction by Catholic conservatives who still openly profess belief, who probably need this reality check from Pope Benedict, which is what Church leadership is supposed to do, make us feel uncomfortable and constantly do a self assessment of where we are.

Since the day Jesus told the rich young man he would have to sell all he had and give the funds to the poor to receive eternal life; decrees related to wealth have not been well received.

  • 6 votes
#12.3 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:37 PM EDT
jazzman646

jack--how exactly would you define that? Anyone who does not support Obama's economic policy?

Where lisa is going is right...I don't think the Pope was endorsing Obamanomics, and trillion dollar stimulus packages.

  • 6 votes
#12.4 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:42 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

how exactly would you define that? Anyone who does not support Obama's economic policy?

Let's go over this again. I did not mention Obama even one time in the article. Not once. As a matter of fact, I think elements of Benedict's encyclical are considerably to the Left of Obama's policies. The idea of a global regime of financial and economic regulation, for instance, would fall on Tim Geithner's deaf ears (pointed though those ears may be).

  • 7 votes
#12.5 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:23 PM EDT
jfxgillis

jazz 12.3:

Stop it. Just STOP.

When we agree like that it always gives me a very queasy feeling.

:^{)>

  • 4 votes
#12.6 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:34 PM EDT
lisaed

Jack---I know you didn't mention obama.....but I'm trying to understand what exactly you mean by "laissez faire capitalism"........and I thought that was a cute way of defining it myself.

  • 4 votes
#12.7 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:36 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

but I'm trying to understand what exactly you mean by "laissez faire capitalism"........

Well, for the purposes of this article, I'd say that's what JPII was referring to with "market idolatry" and what BXVI meant by "commercial logic" in which the economy is merely an "engine for wealth creation." That, in my view, means valuing economic efficiency above all, and especially without regard for the social consequences.

But from a technical standpoint, it's a fairly well-eastablished and defined doctrine. I'll just take the wikipedia definition unless you have a better one.

  • 4 votes
#12.8 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:51 PM EDT
lisaed

jack---those of us who respect the marketplace know that our form of capitalism (prior to obama --I know I'm not supposed to mention his name here--getting his mits on it) creates more wealth (and therefore more JOBS---doesn't God want as many people as possible who are able to WORK and be productive members of society?) than any other economic system.......I know you and I don't agree on who benefits from that wealth....and never will.....but the bottom line is in all fairness those of us who fall into the "market idolatry" category also believe there must be a social safety net in a civil society.

  • 4 votes
#12.9 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:02 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

but the bottom line is in all fairness those of us who fall into the "market idolatry" category also believe there must be a social safety net in a civil society.

Generally speaking, Yeah .... ten or twenty years after the net is implemented over heated objections.

  • 4 votes
#12.10 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:14 PM EDT
gedanken_1

how exactly would you define ... lassiez faire Capitalism?

The meaning of "laissez-faire capitalism" is very similar to a mafia warning to eye witnesses:

lasse affare e una cosa nostra

Which means, translating from Sicilian, "let it be, it's our business."

  • 3 votes
#12.11 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:44 PM EDT
lisaed

jack 12.10---uh, ah.....wait....who was it again who implemented the prescription drug plan for seniors?????

  • 2 votes
#12.12 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:00 PM EDT
jfxgillis

lisa:

That's a fair point. But, from whence also came the strongest opposition?

(Hmmmm. You're up late.)

  • 4 votes
#12.13 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:06 PM EDT
Reply
jazzman646

a cute way of defining it myself.

lisa...since you're so cute yourself...its appropriate...

Ok woman..that ends my fawning over you for today...combined with all of that on grouptalk...its getting out of hand!

  • 5 votes
Reply#13 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:51 PM EDT
Judge-574295Deleted
Judge-574295Deleted
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