Bristol Palin IS PREGNANT (Not a rumor)

Hmm... The epidemy of responsibility? I think not.

And you have to wonder--did she depend on the joke of abstinence only education to protect her daughter? Quite possibly so.

Give me a moment--an over 40 woman allows a pregnancy to happen

Yeah I'm sure she was there watching when it happened, and didn't intervene.

How many teen-age daughters do you have?

How many teen-age daughters do you have?

That's irrelevant. OBVIOUSLY abstinence only programs don't work!

Jack-

Thanks for presenting a properly sourced story, from a media outlet that confirmed and verified their information before publishing. We need more of this on the 'vine', and less of the unsubstantiated rumours and smears that try to pass themselves off as news.

At the very least, Sarah Palin's actions regarding the birth of Trig are downright irresponsible. I know a loving mother, and Sarah Palin is no loving mother!

That's irrelevant. OBVIOUSLY abstinence only programs don't work!

I've asked this once and I'll ask it again.

How do you know this girl was subject to an abstinence only program?

In fact, what do you know about this girl at all, other than she's pregnant?

Let me answer for you.

Not a damn thing.

You're just making a lot of assumptions based on the silly stereotypes of Christian families you've been pre-programmed with.

Produce a link to some information that this proves this girl was taught abstinence only, and never had any exposure to teaching on birth control.

How do you know this girl was subject to an abstinence only program?

Well, I assume that if the mother believes in this stuff, she practices what she preaches. But you're right, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe she hands out condoms to her kids. *rollseyes*

I had four teenage daughters. I had the conversations, intervened as a parent and introduced them to protection - everyone of them got to 21 without getting pregnant. It is not easy and to that extent I can empathize with any parent.

HOWEVER this example of Vice Presidential material also goes to show why conservative "solutions" are nothing to believe in or to be preached to about. After all, it is they doing the public "pre- programming" about their perfect world (referred to above).

Long live the separation of church and state.

But you're right, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe she hands out condoms to her kids. *rollseyes*

What I meant was how do you know this girl didn't receive education on birth control, despite her families beliefs in abstinence, at school, which is common now.

Also my question on how many teen age girls do you have is very relevant.

I want to know what gives you the knowledge and background to legitimately comment on raising one, and what values to instill in them

I have a 16 year old daughter, and you?

Thanks for presenting a properly sourced story, from a media outlet that confirmed and verified their information before publishing. We need more of this on the 'vine', and less of the unsubstantiated rumours and smears that try to pass themselves off as news.

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, but thanks to these 'rumors' The Palins were compelled to reveal the truth.

Also, every article from Newsvine had in its headline "...(rumor)", or was quickly pulled.

demmywemmy:
I made a similar point on a different thread. I think the rumor mill, while cutthroat, can result in "truth in advertising" sometimes. Because they were being accused of something worse than the truth, which they considered shameful enough to hide to start with, they had to swallow the bitter pill of setting the story straight. This is textbook military strategy: create an environment in which every decision at your opponent's disposal damages him and make the one that is the most devastating look the most appealing. If they had denied this they could probably have lied their way into the White House feigning some sort of illness on the daughter's part again. Instead, they were confronted with choices and they chose, with their own mouths, to essentially admit that what the majority of their base believes has no basis in truth, fact or reality. As they used to say in advertising, "This ain't gonna play in Peoria."

every article from Newsvine had in its headline "...(rumor)",

Not until one particular one was called on it. Only then was the word rumor added.

Now that there is some accurate information out there, there are some valid opinions being expressed and discussed.

WR:
Agreed, heartily.

Which is a perfect example of why the internet generally will never replace edited media when it comes to credibility. I can almost guarantee you that one of these websites is going to get its ass sued off one of these days not too far hence if this type @!$%# continues and that includes Newsvine where I've espied one actionably libelous article over this past weekend before it was deleted by its author.

Bill, you're right about the wild rumor-mongering on the web, but if you really think the edited print media are more trustworthy, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for you. The truth is that even the most conscientious, honest journalist sometimes gets bad information and doesn't have time to check it thoroughly enough. Unfortunately, what happens next is that a lot of other journalists repeat and repeat and repeat the wrong information without ever correcting themselves.

The difference between the print media and the Internet is that on the web it all happens faster.

Bull@!$%#. Edited media has very strict standards concerning sourcing and the like. Sometimes it's wrong as was Judy Miller in some of her Iraq reporting before the war but it's not based on a bunch of innuendo by some snot-nosed idiots picking the dingleberries out of their pajamas.

Edited media has very strict standards concerning sourcing and the like.

Some edited media does, but that situation is rapidly deteriorating among some imprint press shops. "Actual malice" rulings have allowed more and more scurrilous, but highly profitable, material to see the light of day.

lengthy plane trip at end, no consideration for complicated birth

Sigh and rolling eyes.

Do you know that in long haul flights are beds in first class and in business class very comfy reclinables?

I wonder.

ehhhh... a bit judgmental - I am sure she listened to medical advice - who doesn't have a teenager that does something that's not too smart sometimes - some mistakes are bigger than others - Linda T .... life does happen.

I'm just not sure what all of life's happening has to do with the Palin's mental health?
Has anyone reported her being unfit to perform her duties as Governor? Just asking - I haven't heard anything like that yet...

Are we hinting here that only perfect people can run for office? When the President of the United States of America tells a bold face lie while looking into the eyeballs of every American alive - I did not have sex with that woman?

He barely got a slap on the wrist for his misconduct. I would have... well never mind. That was Hillary's job. People are dirty rotten scoundrels at heart and we all have skeletons in our closets.

This is bizarre, but life does happen.

Bill H is it always your method of communication to use the "f" word or are you really that outraged?

Do you know that in long haul flights are beds in first class and in business class very comfy reclinables?

Do you know that hospitals in Texas (and Anchorage) are better equipped to handle women about to give birth than the poshest airline accommodations (or the backseat of the most devoted husband's car, respectively)?

I wonder.

Mr. Huang,

Have a written manual of what Sarah or Bristol have to do in case that there is a another baby on the way.

You sound so knowledgeable!

You sound so knowledgeable!

Indeed, what a stark contrast between you and I! Sigh and rolling eyes.

So?

Funny how this got left out of the press briefing kit.

And funny how it's a picture postcard example of why abstinence-only sex education doesn't work.

Most people on welfare are white and female. This is one reason why.

Funny how this got left out of the press briefing kit.

Explain to me why you feel it's your business?

Hey Partisan.

They are trying to spin it as a brave decision to keep the child. If she is so brave, then she should take responsibility for it totally. Move out of Governors mansion, get a job a WalMart, and raise the child on her own. Without any assistance that Republicans as so quick to rail against.

Because the party her mother represents certainly feels that other teen pregnancies (those heading to the abortion clinic, specifically) are their business?

Explain to me why you feel it's your business?

Well, it was the McCain campaign who revealed this information, so that's really not my concern, is it? Just further politicization of her family.

Because the party her mother represents certainly feels that other teen pregnancies (those heading to the abortion clinic, specifically) are their business?

Precisely, AdipicAcid. Great comment that sums it up beautifully.

Explain to me why you feel it's your business?

Are you @!$%#ing kidding me? EVERYTHING these politicians do is our business. They're running to lead our country. Give me a break! If Obama still smokes ciggarettes, I want to know. If McCain has cancer, I want to know.

And funny how it's a picture postcard example of why abstinence-only sex education doesn't work.

It worked.

Move out of Governors mansion, get a job a WalMart, and raise the child on her own.

Is that how you stigmatize all young single mothers?

Working at Wal mart?

I happen to know some who are college graduates and doing well for themselves and their children.

Maybe you boot your kids out when they face a crises. In my family that's when we give them our greatest support.

Because the party her mother represents certainly feels that other teen pregnancies (those heading to the abortion clinic, specifically) are their business?

Precisely, AdipicAcid. Great comment that sums it up beautifully.

Depends.

There's not going to be a sober logical discussion of teen pregnancy, and abortion in this situation, There's going to just be politically partisan trashing of the girl and her mother.

There's not going to be a sober logical discussion of teen pregnancy, and abortion in this situation,

That's an unrealistic expectation and pie in the sky at this time, Jazzy, because of the sheer hypocrisy of the mother's stance.

That's an unrealistic expectation and pie in the sky at this time, Jazzy, because of the sheer hypocrisy of the mother's stance.

Ms C,

Come on. I don't see any hypocrisy here by Palin.

Sarah Palin wasn't the one who didn't abstain, her daughter did.

Even assuming she did try to teach her daughter abstinence, how is Palin a hypocrite because her daughter made the decision not to abstain?

As parents, we try to teach our children certain values based on our beliefs, and that's the best we can do. At some point in their lives they will make their own choices, which we hope will adhere to those values.

Even assuming she did try to teach her daughter abstinence, how is Palin a hypocrite because her daughter made the decision not to abstain?

Good point Jazzy, which means she should stop telling people how they should live their lives and remember the little saying: "There but for the grace of God...", then no one would have focused on her family crises.

Ms Cyprah:

Explain to me exactly how the mother's stance is hypocritical please?

That's just bull@!$%#. Okay, her kid got knocked up, gee think that's the first time it's ever happened?

So, somehow because her kid got pregnant, that somehow invalidates everything she believes in?

I don't think so. Hypocrisy is coming from your side. She is doing what she believes in, helping her daughter to live a life she may be able to be proud of one day.

Wish more folks on the Vine would do the same. The hypocrisy here is just stunning. And the bull@!$%# is all spin, and very, very ugly spin.

But, hey, you're dems and that's what you do.

Sheesh, am I tired of the election year already.

Actually jazz, I think that Ms C has a point.

Here's how I see it:

It's not that she no doubt tried to teach her daughter her own values (abstinence only).

It's not that her daughter followed in the footsteps of so many millions of others (didn't abstain).

It's that this woman still wishes to impose those values that clearly don't work (certainly not for her and her daughter at any rate!) upon the rest of us...

THAT matters...

At least to some of us at any rate.

So, somehow because her kid got pregnant, that somehow invalidates everything she believes in?

No, it doesn't, wmolaw, but it invalidates her exhorting others to live by it because her daughter has proven that it's no panacea or Utopia for real life!

It's that this woman still wishes to impose those values that clearly don't work (certainly not for her and her daughter at any rate!) upon the rest of us...

THAT matters...

At least to some of us at any rate.

Hear, hear, Sick'N'Tired'Of'It...that's it in a nutshell! Thank you. :o)

Thanks back Ms C and, needless to say that I agree that this does indeed pose a very valid point/issue with respect to someone who is seeking our votes for a high office.

But I also have to admit though that because this issue does bring innocents into the debate that we should try to respect THEM as much as we can. I mean, I know we can't keep them out of it completely since the situation speaks too much as to the character of her mother and what we could expect from her if she ever achieved office, but the daughter isn't to blame and shouldn't have to pay for all of this. (IMHO, the poor girl's paying enough already and will unfortunately continue to do so no matter what happens now).

As long as we're concerned about spitting out things... Partisan where did you find your info about the statistics of white woman being the highest percentage on welfare? I'd like to see those stats.

Yes please give us the stats. I know it to be true but can't find much info on it. We need to finally shut people up when they say "others" are the majority on welfare.

I found old stats that said in 2004 that might have been true, but since then it was black and then hispanic women before white women, I'm curious to see the real pagoda before I take my shoes off to sit on the floor

I can't imagine anyone wants to believe this statistic to be true.

Amazing!

It could be true, but only because white Americans are a majority in this country. It's more likely that a plurality of those on welfare are white women, rather than a pure majority. Let's assume some completely made up numbers, and you'll see why it's reasonable not to doubt this claim.

Let's say the population is 60% white, 20% black, 15% Hispanic, and 5% "other". Let's say (just for the purposes of this example) that the incidence of welfare among whites is 10%, that among "other" is 12%, that among Hispanics is 15%, and that among blacks is 18%. If the population is 1,000,000, then the welfare pool will be made up of 60,000 whites, 36,000 blacks, 22,500 Hispanics, and 6,000 people of other racial extraction. That's a total of 124,500 people on welfare, and almost half of them are white, even though the poverty rate is lowest among whites.

On the question of gender, there are several reasons why women are more likely to be on welfare than men. Among them are the persistence of the income gap in America, the fact that women are more likely to retain custody of children, that women are disproportionately affected (by far) by ex-husbands who are delinquent on child support payments, and the fact that elderly women typically outlive their husbands by several years (and the incidence of poverty among the elderly is fairly high).

Even still, if PH is working off specific statistics, it would be nice to see them, but it's not an unreasonable statement on its face.

Spiffie:

I do believe that to be correct. The real question is what percentage of each population is on welfare.

Same for the crime statistics.

But, hey, folks twist stats all the time for their own ends.

Actually jazz, I think that Ms C has a point.

Here's how I see it:

It's not that she no doubt tried to teach her daughter her own values (abstinence only).

Sick'N'Tired'Of'It,

This entire thing about Palins position on abstinence is misinformation.

If you want to know the truth, read this:

Palin: What She Isn't and What She Is

The articlel also dispels a few other myths.

I say you're wrong, jazzman:

Alaska: 2006 Gubernatorial Candidate Questionnaire (Including Palin's Stance on Abstinence Only Education)

Brian Ford,

No I think you're wrong, as Shawn Gordon points out here:

But the claim is that she is abstinence only was the claim. You cite her being given a choice of a grey topic and a bold topic in contrast to one another. Comprehensive sex ed and explicit sex ed can and in this case, are almost opposite in context. She favored one style over another, but that was only verbally. Her vote record has nothing to indicate either option. So, it is MORE likely that she abstained the vote to think it over a bit more.

Shawn Gordon, 11.1, "Palin: What She Isn't and What She Is"

She opposed ""explicit sex ed", and not "comprehensive sex ed"

As far as abandoning a position:

I think on an issue like this, one which is so rooted in personal faith and morals, how likely is it that she'll abandon it, other than for political purposes? I mean, even if she now simply refines the position, or changes course -- to make it more palatable -- isn't it fair for someone to say:

"Yeah, right."

jazz:

Shawn's reference is equivocal and inferential.

Brian's is absolutely clear and directly on point.

gillis,

Ok let me respond myself.

The exact question to Palin on her position on abstinence in the link Brian Ford seeded was:

3. Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?

Palin's exact response was:

SP: "Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support."

She specifically qualified her statement to say she wouldn't support explicit sex -ed programs. She didn't say she'd oppose all forms of sex education.

Jack--my guess is you will get the opportunity to have her answer your phrasing of the question and soon.

jazzman:

Doesn't cut it. The question as asked does not allow for an intermediate answer. It's EITHER/OR.

gillis,

The bottom line is she made her position clear on sex-ed.

Is the issue here about her following the rules in answering the question?

OR

Is it about clarifying her position on sex ed?

If we're arguing about her position on sex-ed, she made it very clear in that response she doesn't oppose all forms of sex-ed.

I don't think you're reading it correctly.

She was asked if she would support abstinence-only education *or* blah blah blah

Her answer began with:

"Yes..."

So, she will fund abstinence-only education.

If she drew a distinction between "explicit" sexual education and other forms (no one has proven to me yet that there's a difference between the two in the eyes of people who aren't trying to muddy the waters) she could have written it into her answer. She wasn't shy on extrapolating on *other* issues, and therefore we can only go by the answer she gave.

The fact is, we're more certain that she would fund abstinence-only education than ANY form of sexual education.

She was asked if she would support abstinence-only education

Brain Ford/gillis

Let's try this again.

The exact question was (and you can go check the story Brian linked for yourself)

"Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education"... "

Palin was never asked if she supported "abstinence only".

Then it's even worse because she explicitly disallowed comprehensive sex ed. As I pointed out (and documented) in Shawn Gordon's article, "explicit" sex ed is code for anything not abstinence-only. The NAEA includes both comprehensive and "abstinence-plus" programs in their explicit category.

LOL! Jazzman, now that you mention it, "abstinence ONLY" (as opposed to abstinence till marriage) would be a little hard on the long-term survival of the species, wouldn't it? The Shakers tried it, and that's why they're no longer around. The Catholic church was a little more prudent, requiring only priests and nuns to practice "abstinence only."

LOL! Jazzman, now that you mention it, "abstinence ONLY" (as opposed to abstinence till marriage) would be a little hard on the long-term survival of the species, wouldn't it?

Sue,

Yeah it would, very good point.

Of course if the entire world were to adopt an abstinence only lifestyle, our undeniable, uncontrollable passion for each other, which has been simmering these last several years, would eventually force us together, and as our passion overcame us, we'd become the saviors of the species.

Of course I'd have to you first marry you first. Since you're an atheist, I know you wouldn't want a Church wedding.

We could jump over a broom in the old AA tradition of matrimony.

Of course the question will be, as similarly posed now to Sarah Palin, can you work, and still be a good mother of hundreds of children, at the same time.

Sorry to ruin such a lovely fantasy, Jazzman, but nature imposed an irrevocable term limit on me several years ago where reproduction is concerned. I am, however, soon to be a grandmother, which has me all excited, and busily crocheting a baby blanket.

tre.

Congratulations for your soon to be grandchild!.

Sue,

yes congrats on the new grandchild.

Yeah, sure is. LOL

Just shows how abstinence only will deliver the goods, especially abstinence from reality!

Abstinence only education is awesome.

It's a nice experience.

It's a nice experience.

...away from reality.

Yeah, gotta love them. Love McCain's family values, too, but that's another story.

Truth better than fiction!

Independent:

Yeah, like standing by your daughter when she screws up, right?

Or would you just throw her out in the street.

Sorry, you can't pin on the mother what the daughter did. And, by the way, seems like she and her boyfriend are standing up to the bar.

Wish more libs would do that, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.

And, by the way, seems like she and her boyfriend are standing up to the bar.

If she and her boyfriend are anything like most people I know who got married because of the baby at a young age (dumbest idea I ever heard) they'll eventually divorce when they find out that a baby isn't a good enough reason to be with someone for the rest of your life, for anyone involved.

Exactly, you stand by your daughter when she screws up.

You don't accomplish this by inviting a freight train of public scrutiny by accepting a vice presidential nomination. You turn it down in the best interest of protecting your family.

Wish more libs would do that, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.

And if more of you conservatives would practice what you preach we would have never gotten close to the mess we're in now!

Speaking of all this celebrity business, didn't Lynne Spears really catch it on the chin from every single direction when her 16 yearold daughter Jamie Lynn Spears came up pregnant? They lambasted her about the hypocrisy of writing a book on parenting when her 16 year old baby was having a baby. When people directly tell you how to live your life (or are the representative of an organization that does) and do not practice what they preach, are we all supposed to sit here silent? Or is Sarah Palin receiving a pass from moderate conservatives to firebreathers because they just want this nightmare to go away so they can try to win the election in 63 days?

I don't blame Gov. Palin for her daughters pregnancy, who can?

But to say that the daughter is stepping up to the plate with the boyfriend by getting married is just nonsense, If you don't think this is a shotgun wedding ONLY because her mom is up for VP then i know for sure that the American people have truly been duped, and I will surely sell you my piece of the Atlantic. C'mon people wake up it happens everyday in the real world so what. It may not be what we want for our children but it's life.
Yes she should be held somewhat responsible for her childrens actions but not totally. I won't be voting for them anyway but this little piece of news has nothing to do with it. This just makes the Palin family a little more like the rest of us, human.

Also, some of you are right about the woman, people who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones, and that surely will be this tickets downfall.
You can't preach to me what works and what does not if your own household does not abide it. And what's up with the husband and a DUI? Don't know if it's rumor or not have not found much info, but will keep looking to get my facts right.
Like I said, makes em more human and flawed just like the rest of us.

All-
Listen her daughter is just in High School. I think most (if not all) high schoolers have done something that goes against the ideals taught by their parents. I think this girl and her boyfriend are going to have to go through a terrible ordeal. Listen, I can imagine that having a child that young can be slightly problematic. Having your decisions questioned by the national media will be at least slightly traumatic. Her being pregnant will not affect my vote. Responsible journalists should let this go.

Just my $.02

publius

Who knows, they may get married and live happily ever after, for the rest of their lives.

It does happen, you know.

Who knows, they may get married and live happily ever after, for the rest of their lives

And you may still find WMDs in Iraq.

Brian:

Actually, No, because it turned out that picture was two years old.

Which still puts the Trigger story in play. I am sorry, there is being chubby, and then there's being pregnant. There's not much mistaking the one for another in that particular photo.

ha ha...sounds very much like it, trex. Expect a divorce soon after! :o(

Sorry to be off topic, but she has not given one of her children a christian name!

Whatever happened to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

Now, I wonder what Bristol and future hubby are going to name this one?

demmywemmy:
Shiva, in memory of the McCain-Palin campaign? ;-)

Now, I wonder what [they] are going to name this one?

Ger. Put them together and you have Trig-Ger.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I cast no judgments on this young woman and her decisions. I'm just concerned that her mother will do her best to take away OUR right to make such important decisions.

Jack:

Oh, I suspect we will see folks go lower, I assure you.

wmolaw:
Just because some go low doesn't mean that conservatives can dismiss any criticism of Palin as irrelevant.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that wmolaw's right on that one. I don't remember how long ago the "Hatfields and the McCoys" were but once the blood gets in the water, it's kind of hard not to get involved in a good old-fashioned feud. Guess now it's the "Ellies" and the "Dons" maybe?

Anyway, point is that despite my best attempts not to I've still already found myself screaming: "SHOOT 'EM AGAIN PA!!!" A few times in the last several months so I don't think that everyone's going to be able to avoid the temptation to do so every moment until the election either.

So much for careful vetting....of the family values conservative candidate....lets all just go shake our heads, laugh and get back to fixing the economy now....oh..and ending the war. What's Russia been up to lately anyway?

njb you continue to be a voice of reason. :)

From looking at many of the other threads around here, its going to be very hard for some people to let these things go, in favor of picking more substantial criticisms. I would have to agree with some that tie this to her positions on abstinence based education, but yawn... just another day in the "news". Focus on the gossip while reality passes us all by.

njb:

How the hell is this against "family values" on the part of the mother?

What the hell, are all you guys on drugs or what. This is Exactly family values, you know, a kid screws up, and the family comes to her aid.

Seems to me better than shuttling her down to the local abortion clinic whether she wants to have an abortion or not.

But, hey, go for it.

I suspect people who actually live life, screw up, have kids who screw up will understand this situation and feel affinity for it.

Of course, doesn't seem as if there are many of those folks on the Vine.

wmolaw:
Perhaps you've forgotten the line that the Bush administration and the Republican Party (who Sarah Palin represents) has fed to us over the last eight years:
1) Parents of pregnant teens are irresponsible
2) Pregnant teens are irresponsible whores that made an immoral choice and deserve no help from the govt because they made the "choice to open their legs."

If what Republicans say is true, their VP nominee is an irresponsible parent that cannot run her own family much less the entire country and the "picture perfect" family of the Palins is anything but.

Accepting and assisting pregnant unwed teens is a Democratic issue. Republicans have said they are immoral and wanted to cut off assistance to them since 1994 and, if you want to stretch it back to "government is the problem" and "welfare queens driving Cadillacs", even back to 1980. Let's face it: Sarah Palin's family is the antithesis of everything the religious right believes in and preaches loudly from their soapbox.

Remember the Murphy Brown flap in '92? And she didn't even exist.

trex:
A good case in point on how Republicans feel about the issue.

Scott:

Oh, bull@!$%#.

Show me where the republican party has this as a plank:

2) Pregnant teens are irresponsible whores that made an immoral choice and deserve no help from the govt because they made the "choice to open their legs."

That bull@!$%# is what you WANT the pub planking to be, but it's not.

Sorry.

That's much like saying the democrat planking is to take money from all those that earn it and give it to those that don't.

Oh, wait, that is their position!

Funny, what will the dems do when all those who earn money take that money offshore, or go to bartering, or find other ways to escape the confiscatory taxes that are proposed (with no resulting benefits to those that pay the taxes?)

Even the Euros are, finally, coming to their senses in that regard.

Why are the dems so far behind the curve?

wmolaw:
I never said it was a plank of the party. It is the mentality of most in the party though. I should know because I've been discussing politics my entire life with Republicans and used to believe it myself until I switched sides.

But it's great, isn't it, it's so mean of those ol' wibewal bwoggers for outing the ridiculousness of painfully evident evidence.

Priceless comment, Partisan! ha ha

And this is the lady deemed most fit for the highest office. Jeeez.

You're right, it doesn't clear up a thing. The child is nearly 5 months old, so it would be easy enough to add another month to her now 5 month along pregnancy. When the child is born, they will claim it came early. A lot of women get pregnant soon after giving birth. Not quite sure how they think this dispels the rumor, it actually makes it look true.

Yeah, it seems like what this means is that -- in their overzealous attempt to smear Palin -- they missed the real story by rushing and blowing their wad all over fictional rumors.

Real journalists (or good journalists) would have confirmed first, and along they way, they may have stumbled onto this story.

I think there's a lot to this, and a lot that will be damaging to McCain based on his vetting process. This pregnancy, which only comes out after she's selected -- didn't raise any red flags when considering her extremely conservative views on abortion and birth control? Will the GOP now think -- geez, I wish more had gone into finding out about this, or that we'd been let in on it...

Did McCain know? If so, did anyone else before he picked her?

If not -- shouldn't he have known? Why didn't he? Etc.

Jack:
I think the proper term for the liberal bloggers' and their Trigger story is "Even a broken clock is right twice a day." They got everything but the daughter being pregnant wrong, including when she was pregnant and who she was pregnant with. LOL

Yeah, it seems like what this means is that -- in their overzealous attempt to smear Palin -- they missed the real story by rushing and blowing their wad all over fictional rumors.

I am inclined to disagree here. I think if they weren't so 'overzealous', they would not have forced the Palin camp to admit this truth in order to stem the rumours until an opportune time. :o(

Republican solution to two of life's problems: two babies who will be loved and cared for.

Implied Democrat solution: two dead babies and everyone else lives happily ever after.

Republican solution to two of life's problems: two babies who will be loved and cared for.

Implied Democrat solution: two dead babies and everyone else lives happily ever after.

Republican solution to two of life's problems: two babies who will be loved and cared for.

Implied Democrat solution: two dead babies and everyone else lives happily ever after.

Nobody cares how Sarah Palin's family lives, mymymy, and no one wants abortions. What people want is this family to live according to their STATED values, to their truth, the one they exhort other people to live by! That's what causing the criticisms here. The sheer hypocrisy of it all.

Literally EVERY PIECE of "evidence" produced by the liberal bloggers was either false or misinterpreted. EVERY Piece.

There's NO PART of the story as developed over the weeked that is consistent with what we now know to be true.

Nothing.

Hmm, bear with me here, I am not sure what's been refuted. We have a two year-old photo of Bristol looking pregnant in my own estimate, a very odd story about how the delivery of Trigger took place, and now a SEPARATE story about Bristol. You may have access to information that I don't have, though, so if you have a link I'd be grateful.

Could this be another Karl Rove ratf**k management of a negative story? Possibly. But I'd like to understand how the stories about Trigger are refuted.

Yeah, it seems like what this means is that -- in their overzealous attempt to smear Palin -- they missed the real story by rushing and blowing their wad all over fictional rumors.

Real journalists (or good journalists) would have confirmed first, and along they way, they may have stumbled onto this story.

By my reading, "they" comes down to "one" on Kos, and he doesn't qualify as either a "real" or "good" journalist. So much for the vast left-wing conspiracy. And at least he had the balls to stick his name on the story, unlike the anonymous slime that has oozed -- and continues to ooze -- out of the right-wing swamp.

Yes, the misplaced pregnancy was a big goof and I noted otherwheres that that piece had all the makings of an urban legend. But they sorted out the essential fact that there's a surprise in the oven somewhere and Ms Family Values had to come clean. Let's see how they manage to blame this one on the wiberwuls

And by the way, IT'S THE HYPOCRACY, STUPID!!!

I'm not sure I agree with Partisan Hack, but I will say this:

This will do nothing to quell unfounded rumors and speculation. Expect that to intensify, now.

By my reading, "they" comes down to "one" on Kos, and he doesn't qualify as either a "real" or "good" journalist.

Well, here's the original article. A lot of interesting points are raised based on what appears to be very fact-based research - and some compelling photo evidence to boot.

Circumstantial? Of course. But so far we haven't heard much of anything but "even it it were true..." refutations.

Here's the second article from Kos. Again, good research, in my estimate, raising a lot of uncomfortable questions about the whereabouts of Bristol for eight months with "mono" (usually not so long an absence, and an adjusted fact, apparently) and the almost irrational drive to Wasilla for this delivery, passing several of the state's best hospitals that were well-equipped to deal with early deliveries. And, perhaps most troubling of all, no mention of Trigger's birth at the hospital.

Think about it - if you take the facts at face value, this was a very dramatic story - breaks water in Texas, eight hour plane flight, drives all the way to Wasilla for delivery - why so little coverage?

I am glad to have the facts be whatever they are, but for now I think that as citizen journalists we should acknowledge that ArcXIX has done some good work to raise some very interesting questions.

Jack:
Not everything. They said that the daughter was pregnant, which at the core was true. They just named the wrong baby and the wrong time. So they were only right once but I felt the clock analogy fit.

They just named the wrong baby and the wrong time.

...yeah...minor details.

jfxgillis,

It was my understanding that the child's given name is "Trigger," that "Trig" was short for "Trigger." Given Sarah Palin's predilection for all things guns, it certainly made sense. I see that the official name is Trig. My apologies for any misunderstanding.

So I will repeat my question with the corrected spelling:

Sorry, guys, still looking for links that provide new information on the Trig stories from Kos. Let's deal with the facts, please.

Which are still not forthcoming. if the Kos stories are pure fabrication, so be it. But so far I have not seen responses that deal with the facts of their stories - only a campaign press release that was used to attack Obama and a lot of emotion-charged statements.

Jack;

I have no doubt but that this was known to the McCain camp and they decided to have her anyway.

Frankly, it seems to me that those, like Ms. Cyprah, who say:

Nobody cares how Sarah Palin's family lives, mymymy, and no one wants abortions. What people want is this family to live according to their STATED values, to their truth, the one they exhort other people to live by! That's what causing the criticisms here. The sheer hypocrisy of it all.

Are the ones off the mark. Seems to me they are doing exactly what their "stated" values tell them to do. The girl screwed up, okay. Gee, wonder if Ms. Cyprah et al ever have (or if they are indeed perfection personified.)

Even folks with "values" screw up. Of course, inveterate lefties have no values, so it is hard for them to screw up.

But, now that the girl screwed up, seems they are acting (Palin and family) are acting entirely consistent with their stated "values."

Very, very strange. I really wonder why people get such glee out of this, when it isn't even Palin who screwed up.

Jack:

What I said about the child's name goes for you, too. If you refer to the child, refer to him by his given name or I delete you.

What the hell, Jack? I said "who she was pregnant with." They said the daughter was pregnant. They designated the wrong time and the wrong child (I think that Trig is the name of the child they accused her of having that Sarah says is her own). They were right the daughter was pregnant and it was this flurry of rumors that forced the Palins to announce that their teenage daughter was unmarried and pregnant. What, am I not allowed to refer to babies and fetuses with what you would call a regular person, "who"? This is out of left field. What the hell is your problem?

Jack:

You have got to be kidding. The CORE claim was that Sarah Palin was NOT Pregnant.

Seriously. If it had simply been that the girl had made a life mistake with her high school boyfriend, does the story develop the way it developed?

Moreover, ALL the evidence used to advance the claim that the girl was pregnant turned out to be false or unsupported by the evidence. To this instant there's no evidence that the girl left school.

Aristotle made a distinction between "knowledge" and "true opinion." So there was a true opinion stated. Big Deal. If that were important, I'd be clairvoyant based on the fact that the Red Sox won the World Series last year because I wanted them to.

Clearly I didn't make myself clear, Jack. I was laughing at the fact that Daily Kos got one single thing right and that was the fact that Sarah Palin's daughter Bristol was pregnant. They f*cked up by saying she was pregnant with Trig (which she wasn't, she is pregnant with a different child) and they f*cked up the time frame and they totally f*cked up everything about the story besides that. However, the Palins never would have admitted that Bristol was pregnant if not for the Daily Kos rumor mill and in that they have succeeded in bringing out the truth and showing that Sarah Palin is a hypocrite for joining on with a party that makes open war against pregnant teens while having one herself and concealing it until her hand was forced. Are you trying to play hardball with me or something, Jack? I had thought this a genial discussion between you and I until the last posts by you.

Jack:

Now, having said that, you seem to also have a substantive beef about my critique of the Kos claims. EVERY so-called "fact" they produced to support the contention that the infant was actually Bristol's was either flat wrong or wrongly interpreted. For instance:

Perhaps you misunderstand me. In creating this kerfuffle I think it is funny that they stumbled over a grain of truth however small it may be.

Jack:

Second, it's nobody's business anyway. The Palin's shouldn't have to had to have "admitted" this because it's none of your or anyone else's @!$%#ing business. Their intimate family life belongs to them, not to you or to us.

We have different views on this, probably stemming from our different professions. To my mind, when you declare for public office you either open your books to the public or you batten down the hatches and try to hide the skeletons in the closet. The public has an inherent right to know who they are electing and I believe it is anti-democratic to draw a line and say "No investigation past here." If the media can uncover it, bully for them. If the campaign can keep it under wraps, the same kudos. It's a game with an importance to our system of governance.

The public has a right to know the facts of Sarah Palin's policy views and her performance as regards the positions she's held. They do not automatically get free access to the lives of Palin's children's lives, in the exact same way that Chelsea Clinton was more-or-less out-of-bounds for coverage while she was an underage minor. Let's also remember that a common refrain vis-a-vis the Lewinsky matter was that Bill Clinton's personal life was no one's business by his and his wife's, and the ludicrous attention paid it by the Republicans was just that: ludicrous.

I said this somewhere else, but it bears repeating: We're supposed to be better than this. It's time we started acting like it.

PH:

Are you kidding? I've been dealing with the FACTS for three days and I got hammered for it by all you pychos who either believed the idiotic story in the first place or thought that the Palin family's intimate lives was anybody's business but theirs anyway.

I don't want new facts on the story. I have more facts on the story than I ever wanted to know

With due respect, Jack, and I do mean due respect, I haven't seen any materials that refute the core story that Kos came up with. The timeline and the evidence pertaining to Sarah Palin's claimed pregnancy with Trig is very, very odd. Nobody wants to touch it, perhaps, but there was a lot of interesting material there that really hasn't been explained well. I am concerned that the McCain campaign is politicizing Bristol Palin's alleged pregnancy but more concerned that reporters were thrown off the real track - namely, the question of whether or not Sarah Palin in fact delivered Trig Palin and whether there is a cover-up. Lots of emotion, lots of noise - but no real refutation of the core story from Kos. Point me to links, please, I want to be reality-based on this.

How about we get the National Enquirer on it? They will figure this mess out....

is NOT a fair point because it intrudes into an area of intimate family life that is no concern of the state and not a matter of civil affairs. The circumstances of the child's birth are of no concern to the public.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with this point, Jack. If in fact Trig Palin's birth is in question, then why would Sarah Palin be using yet another child as a political prop? I don't care at all for the salaciousness of this, but it raises some very troubling points. As it is, the politicization of Bristol Palin's pregnancy by the McCain campaign is sad enough. To bring a disabled child into the political spotlight potentially on false premises is something to be concerned about.

Notably Kos has pulled BOTH stories on the Trig Palin birth to which I was linking. This may be a strategic move to reduce heat, or it may be that they saw that the facts were out of line. My suspicion is that the truth lies somewhere in-between - that the Obama campaign told them "get this out of the gutter, right now" and they complied, even though there were probably some important facts to be sorted out. So unfortunately this is a dead issue for now. Lesson: always cache.

Partisan:

They pulled the stories because they are bull@!$%#.

Just like Ms. Cyprah's story here on NV about Palin posing naked was pulled, because it was bull@!$%#.

Clearly the naked photos were bull, not even a close resemblance.

But the interesting thing is that most of the details from the Kos stories came from authoritative mainstream news sources. They interviewed the crew of the plane on which Sarah Palin was traveling from Texas to Alaska on an eight-hour flight to deliver a premature baby known to have Down's Syndrome and the crew noted that her pregnancy was not apparent. Indeed, there are no photos that show Palin in a clear advanced state of pregnancy with Trig that I have seen - and a photo from an earlier pregnancy seems to indicate that Ms. Palin does "show" when she is pregnant.

The details from this story come primarily from verified accounts in mainstream news sources. The pieces just don't seem to add up. Here's a video on the topic, not as detailed as the Kos articles and lacking the very key details about where and now Trig was delivered (or not), but a reasonable summary of the "hmmm, that's odd" nature of the story.

I don't intend to pursue this to any degree but I do put it out there for people to consider. There is something that's just not right about the official version of this story and I welcome factual clarification.

Could it be... that Palin's selection is a smokescreen?

Since she is clearly not an optimum choice... is it possible that Palin was thrown out there as a diversion... only to be replaced right before the VP debate with the 'real' choice?

What if the 'real choice is someone that would have thrown the convention into turmoil... and this is the way to appease the delegates temporarily, then jettison her in favor of the original pick?

Biden should practice debating against a host of possibilities.

Ridge, Romney, Liebermann, Jeb Bush?

I wouldn't be surprised if McCain asked her to step down. Either way it's going to be a public relations nightmare. Picking another running-mate spells doom for him this November (and the Democrats would have a field day with it) and keeping her in the running while she tries to talk about family values will meet the harshest criticism out there.

That is the key point here I sensed about this woman from minute one: matching actions to fine words! Making the reality live up to the fantasy. :o(

I was thinking the same thing Ms. They put out this story to see how people will react to it first. If it looks like his conservative base will turn against him, we will be seeing breaking news and a speech by her claiming she is stepping down for personal reasons, and try to turn it around that it's all Obama's fault. You're comments make a lot of sense Dave, why in the world would McCain pick this woman knowing it would offend his conservative base. I have a feeling Lieberman will be named after this woman steps down.

RSnotrag Dave, I think Biden could easily refute any new VP's attacks with a simple question:

"So, which VP candidate are you, and who will I be debating next week?"

Capt...

Good point. LOL

Did McCain know? If so, did anyone else before he picked her?

I support pro life.

Is Biden going to feel the pain of the Governor Palin and tell her?

#9

"Stupid libs! You released 'Juno' as propaganda to get our teenagers pregnant!"

Actually Juno was released by FOX Searchlight. It is an odd parallel, though...a pregnant teen with the name that evokes Alaska...Perhaps Rupert Murdoch had inside information ;)

Is Biden going to feel the pain of the Governor Palin and tell her?
You don't even want to touch the pain that Biden has felt in his life! He lost his first wife and their infant daughter to an auto accident. What could be more painful than that??

He values his family probably more than those of us who've never experienced such a loss. But just like many parents, he is pro-choice, because he knows that having children is not something you just squeeze into your free time. It is the #1 priority and responsibility of your life.

But just like many parents, he is pro-choice, because he knows that having children is not something you just squeeze into your free time. It is the #1 priority and responsibility of your life

Way to go, Ellen! That is so true.

I don't think the McCain campaign - by its own description - had properly gone through all of this stuff themselves. They didn't know what to expect, and probably assumed the Palins were a pretty wholesome, caribou-skinning crew. I am sure the McCain camp is deciding what to do now. I think to the rest of the world outside of the internet (after talking to my sister today) aren't aware of all of this stuff yet. I'm sure a few more days will be more telling (in so many ways).

On that note, is switching VPs after the presidential candidate has chosen one ever done? I thought I read something or maybe heard something from MTP about a campaign in the somewhat recent past that did that...? Anyone know anything?

I think to the rest of the world outside of the internet

There's a world outside the internet?

On that note, is switching VPs after the presidential candidate has chosen one ever done?

Tom Eagleton withdrew from the McGovern ticket in '72.

I don't think the McCain campaign - by its own description - had properly gone through all of this stuff themselves.

McCain has stated he knew about this before he made the decision to choose Palin.

I guess I don't understand the - by his own description- comment.

Leah H: Yes. Go Google the name "Thomas Eagleton" for the full story. Long story short: George McGovern picked him, and then journalists broke the story that several years before when he was suffering a clinical depression he'd undergone electroshock therapy. These days, people know that clinical depression is a common, eminently treatable illness, and electroshock therapy is rarely used anymore, but back then that constituted a great scandal. Also, the fact that Eagleton hadn't told McGovern about his psychiatric history was considered a sign of bad character. So McGovern asked him to withdraw from the ticket and chose Sargent Shriver instead. And lost in a landslide. Not a model that I think McCain wants to follow.

My feeling about Eagleton then was the same as what the Republicans and Obama are both saying about Bristol Palin: it's a private matter, it's irrelevant, have some decency and leave it alone.

I think to the rest of the world outside of the internet (after talking to my sister today) aren't aware of all of this stuff yet. I'm sure a few more days will be more telling (in so many ways).

Don't you believe it, Leah. It was all over our news here in the UK tonight, with the implication that Sarah was a kind of liability with the latest things coming out about her, including the fact that her husband got stopped by the police. I didn't even know that! The BBC thought the fact that she was virtually unknown is not proving good for McCain. They wondered what might be next.

After Hurricane Gustav makes his way off the cable news channels they will be discussing Bristol Palin's pregnancy. That is the only reason they aren't discussing it much today. The Republicans caught the bad luck of a hurricane reminding the country of their bungling of Katrina in 2005 but they caught a break in that Gustav diverted attention away from the Bristol Palin pregnancy story.

jazzman - the by his own description comment was referring to the fact that he said he only had met Sarah Palin twice before, not necessarily the pregnancy issue.

Thanks for all the info above, guys. It does seem rather unlikely that any ticket changing will go on. I can't believe how interesting this election season is. I feel so lucky to be alive and paying attention to it right now. This is definitely one for the books.

My feeling about Eagleton then was the same as what the Republicans and Obama are both saying about Bristol Palin: it's a private matter, it's irrelevant, have some decency and leave it alone.

trex -
I pretty much agree - many more issues that are important to look into. On the other hand, it becomes a case-in-point example of some 'Family Values' doctrines that should be re-examined.

The Republican faithful have got to be going nuts. First James Dobson says pray that rain will destroy Obama's acceptance speech but instead Gustav destroys the Republican convention

If the Republicans really believe in their God, then it's time for them to sit up and notice what He's vainly trying to tell them!

Now we learn that Sarah ( I don't believe in contraception or abortion) Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant.

It's called 'hypocrisy'. Telling other people how to run their lives has a habit of coming back to bite us in the backside with a vengeance when we least expect it! trouble goes in threes, so wait for another unexpected announcement. What a continuing disaster.

Great seed, Jack, thank you.

One question. Did you feel passion only one day in your life when young?

I had an army of chaperons that kept me white lily.

Let's go back to the roots of chaperoning our children and have someone in the door and in the window taking care of them.

Telling other people how to run their lives has a habit of coming back to bite us

Ms Cyprah, I've seen you say this several times, but isn't that what government is about, period? Don't YOU want to tell other people how to run their lives? Maybe not in the same ways as your hated Republicans, but still.

Liberals always know what's best to do with my money, and want to make me put it where THEY say is the best place. Really no difference.

So please stop your hypocrisy of bemoaning that republicans always "tell other people how to run their lives" when Democrats obviously want to do the same thing.

The whole premise of government is telling other people what to do and backing it up with violence and force. So quit pretending your on some vaunted high ground, because it doesn't exist in politics.

Joshua:

Great post.

And you can take it further.

The libs want to tell us what to eat, what to smoke (dope okay, cigarettes or tobacco bad).

They want to tell us what we can or cannot think (hate crime legislation) and just how to think it. They wish to regulate our thoughts. (1984'ish, don't you think?)

And they want to say how we should spend our money, and if we don't do it correctly, they will just confiscate it.

They denigrate the "rich," with the clear intent of causing class issues in a country where class is the least important factor of any Country in this world.

And they do it all for their own personal power and self aggrandizement.

So, you are right, no room to say what Ms. Cyprah says.

Seems that it's likely to be. After the way they have covered up her latest pregnancy so far, who can believe anything they say anymore? I wonder how that pregnancy would have been dealt with if Sarah had not been nominated? Would it have been covered up for the sake of expediency and faulty values? :o(

They said she's close to 5 months pregnant. we all saw her last Friday on National TV...I bet she's close to 3, making it entirely likely it's number 2. Palin still hasn't addressed questions on her actions related to Trig, so I'm sticking with this.

Don't throw stones to the glass house of Obama. He came from the same circumstances.

det:
Damn straight he did and Republicans have been firing artillery at that house since the Culture Wars started in the 1970's.

Mr. Isaacs, nothing united more us mothers that were lucky not to be in that position.

I am going to send to Alaska the first box for newborns of Pampers.

det:
I think that's wonderful and I think you should continue, as your income permits, to send Pampers to every new teen unwed mother because it's the right thing to do. Welcome to the Democratic Party, enjoy your stay.

Your right Scott. It is the right thing to do to help new teen unwed mothers. I just don't want the government telling me I must help them or else. I see greedy Democrats as much as I see greedy Republicans. And I see compassionate Dems as Repubs.

Way to compare a family values candidate to Obama, Mcgovern. I knew you could do it. Never mind that Palin is under investigation and Obama is not (and won't be). You try to spin this any way you can.

Today's Fact: VP candidate Palin releases statement on how 17-year-old daughter is pregnant despite her constant support for abstinence programs touting their effectiveness.

And you people say Biden has foot-mouth disease.

News was that this was already known to the McCain campaign, was discussed and considered a non issue.

Oh my god, a 17 year old girl Pregnant...thats NEVER happened Before?

I brought this up in another thread of this same subject, I'll do it again here.

If this were about a daughter of Obama or Biden, the conservatives and McCain's campaign would be all over it, screaming from the rooftops. Just who do you right wingers think you're kidding with your self righteous BS?

Just who do you right wingers think you're kidding with your self righteous BS?

We are fed with it. Therefore, in and out.

Ha ha ha ha!

I don't know what else to say...that's brilliant.

You forgot to add ROTFLOL.

I refuse to resort to "internet-speak". Therefore, my laughter will always be typed phonetically.

So, all these teens that hundreds of outreach programs, education programs, etc are trying to dissuade from engaging in risky behaviors such as unprotected sex.......are now going to be facing another UPHILL BATTLE because they're going to see this teen.......the daughter of the Vice Presidential candidate...as evidence that it's OK.

McCain does not see the potential issue here?

Precisely, SfF. In line with Republican cock-eyed family values, obviously. Abortion is wrong, but hey, being pregnant at 17 is so cool!

WHERE WERE THE PARENTS????????

Good question. Errrr....Busy telling other people to abstain from sex while their kids indulge? :o)

I am a single mom and trust me....I am NEVER too busy to know where my daughter is...to communicate with her...to know her friends and THEIR PARENTS...to SET BOUNDARIES and expect those boundaries to be respected and if not go by the consequences you've set .

I try to be brief.

Just pray that you don't through for the same.

Never spit upwards.....

So, the daughter is 5 months pregnant......and the mom, chooses the VP selection instead of saying, hey wait a minute......she needs me now more than ever, I can't do this....my family comes first.

Am I cock-eyed in my thinking?

Here's a message to Mrs. Palin, John McCain and every gushing and blushing social conservative out there who is going to go out of their way to rewrite the definition of FAMILY VALUES........

1. Teen pregnancy is NOT something to be proud of - regardless of the decision of how to handle it.
2. It is irresponsible to NOT teach your children a comprehensive view of the reality of the world.
3. CHOOSING CAREER over FAMILY is not proof of effective parenting.
4. Gov. Palin - YOU ARE IRRESPONSIBLE and NO ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN.
5. Bristol Palin - YOU ARE NOT A POSITIVE OR EFFECTIVE ROLE MODEL FOR YOUNG WOMEN.

John McCain, you're a blind idiot.

Bristol Palin shouldn't have to be... her parents should have been more in tune with what was going on at home rather than doing dual careers. Isn't what happened to Bristol EXACTLY WHY social conservatives argue a woman's place is in the home?

Isn't what happened to Bristol EXACTLY WHY social conservatives argue a woman's place is in the home?

What's happened to Bristol happens to hundreds of thousands of families across this country.

But only a moron would try to politicize it.

Scott---you sexist, p@#&k

Um...pretty sure that was a Colbert-esque satirization of social conservative values. Nice CoH violation from a long-time user who should know better, though.

Infohack:
I'm glad you noticed I was making light of the proposed Second Family eviscerating their core voters' belief system.

Nice CoH violation from a long-time user who should know better, though.

Who are you?

The CoH police?

Now be nice, it can't be easy to be a diehard Republican right now..LOL

#14.9

Yep. He is. And so are you. And everyone else.

You know why the discourse on newsvine often sucks balls? Because some people don't take that seriously and because other people think it's lame when people *do* take it seriously.

That family has alot going on and I really question the judgment of a parent, mother or father, who would choose this time to embark on a career that is frequently going to take her away from them.

Brilliant comment, Ana13. This makes the focus on family life such a mockery, trivialising both the presidency and care and sensitivity that children need, let alone 5 of them and a pregnant daughter! There is an awful lot going on in this family that needs quiet support and reflection and this rather vain woman, and perhaps the father too, would put them all in the spotlight without a moment's notice just for her career. If they thought for one moment about the effect on their kids of all this activity just now, they would be behaving differently.

I would have admired her far more if she had said something like: "I am honoured to be nominated but believe that, at this time, my focus should be on my family. The Vice Presidency is a very important position in this country and I would not be able to give it my full attention an commitment. However, I hope to be able to serve my country in some capacity in the future and feel confident someone else will be appointed to do the Office justice".

She would then show just what mettle she is made of. But what poor judgment and naked ambition she has that seem to override everything else. And this is the lady deemed the BEST CHOICE for the vice presidency!

I agree Ana. What exactly are family values in this paradigm? Is it just about having babies? Is it about the care and nurture of human beings? Something just doesn't make sense here.

Any bets on how soon Ms Palin pulls out due to "family issues"? Despite the plastered on smiley-faces from the right, the news just gets worse and worse and worse for this nominee. Pull her sooner and they can claim that she was "borked" by the dems; pull out later after full disclosure on a multitude of skeletons and there will be no saving face.

It will take as long as it takes McCain to say "should've listened to me on Lieberman!" I'm thinking he knew she was a wholly unsuitable choice...did it to poke right wingers in the eye because they wouldn't let him have Lieberman. Didn't really think that idea through too good!
She'll step aside, saying her family stuff is a distraction, he'll gleefully choose Lieberman, and think all is good again...too bad he just gave even his loyal supporters reason to run as fast as they can.

Baloney, you don't care about Bristol and her family. I am passing the tissues for your tears.

It's crazy ironic ... In the last 3 years how many Republicans left office to "spend more time with their families" ?

More of God's retribution - for overusing the excuse?

Well, according to the Constitution, the VP only does two things...cast a vote in the Senate in case of a tie, and become President if the President dies. Not exactly brain surgery. The VP was known as the political dead end for a reason in the 18th and early 19th centuries (before TR). Really, according to the Constitution, it should just be a part time job, as most politcal "jobs" should be.

My dog could probably be an acceptable Vice President if the VP were expected to hold to their constitutionally defined responsibilities.

Joshua: Including the part about stepping into the Presidency on a moment's notice? Come on. The VP candidate has to be qualified for the presidency. That's what he/she is there for.

oops...will repost

This story also magnifies how a young woman gets pregnant, even while living with access to reproductive education. Imagine if she were so embarrassed she sought out an abortion, even though she knew it went against everything she was taught and believed.

She was taught abstinence. That was the extent of her 'reproductive education' as far as I can see. Having sex obviously went 'against everything she was taught and believed'. It's not about what's immoral, it's about reality. This girl, like many, was not educated about her sexuality in a way that was life affirming. She was taught repression and sin and abstinence. That was effective, huh?

It's not about what's immoral, it's about reality. This girl, like many, was not educated about her sexuality in a way that was life affirming. She was taught repression and sin and abstinence. That was effective, huh?

Hear, hear, Redruby. Well said. That's the price one pays for focusing on sex to the detriment of the other important aspects of our lives: like emotions, feelings, love and human value.

Redruby-

"It's not about what's immoral, it's about reality. This girl, like many, was not educated about her sexuality in a way that was life affirming. She was taught repression and sin and abstinence. That was effective, huh?"

I personally do not want to go into the conservative house and preach! This family can teach religious conservatism if that gives them pride, hope, security, whatever? They just proved how ineffective this approach is, and I almost feel like thanking them.

I was trying to point out that this is another opportunity for meaningfull dialogue.

This girl, like many, was not educated about her sexuality in a way that was life affirming.

I would agree. Sexuality is a part of life, but obviously young people need to be able to experience it without too many tragic consequences for them or their potential children. Sadly I am aware of too many young kids who went this route and have struggled in poverty ever after. It's a policy of enslavement for women and for ensuring poverty.

This girl, like many, was not educated about her sexuality in a way that was life affirming. She was taught repression and sin and abstinence. That was effective, huh?

Moi aussi and I don't regret it.

Moi aussi and I don't regret it.

Ah, so you believe that ignorance is strength.

But we knew that.

NPNG

On the other hand, conservatives should keep their values at home and stop preaching about changing Roe v. Wade every four years

This is the core of the issue: "Jesus" fueled fanaticism, closing the divide between church and state - creating a theocracy under the bannaer of "moral health". Like the particular avenue of "faith" that it springs from, it is a sham and a grab for power.

Redruby,

This girl, like many, was not educated about her sexuality in a way that was life affirming. She was taught repression and sin and abstinence.

This is precisely what happened to this girl and continues to happen to many otheres in her situation, all to ill effect. There's a profound difference between a contemplative enlightening "faith", which the Palin household does not represent, and abject brainwash through shame and fear, which the Palin household, and indeed all fundamentalist households, reflect.

If he knew this, and decided anyway to select her, than he has not shown much respect for the daughter or this woman, her family or America. She should have decline it, to protect her daughter. It says a lot for her priorities and judgement.

Hear, hear! That is what REAL family values are all about: not just thinking about ourselves, but our kids!

It was reported that he did know about, and didn't think it was a reason not to have her as VP

It was reported that he did know about

Of course that's going to be reported like that. What would it look like if the campaign didn't know? I bet the poor girl is catching hell from her mom these past few days and, should they lose the election, Bristol will never live it down. Either way, because of mom's ambition the girl is hosed: she's likely to have a nervous breakdown in the near future; her faith being the cause, not the salvation from, emotional pain...

Yeah, Bristol's not on the ticket, in any case. This is one of those stories where those who care will care, those who won't, won't, and no-one's mind is likely to be changed one way or the other, rendering its effects on the election pretty much nil.

This story has about as much leverage to use against palin as did the fact that Mary Cheney is a lesbian who has had a baby with her lesbian lover did to Mary's father.

There is certainly no comparison here. Mary Cheney was not bleating to others how wrong it was for them to be gay, or that they should abstain from sex!

My goodness, the double standards of these mealy-mouthed Republican supporters who change their values like they change their clothes while telling others how to live their lives! Jeeez.

rendering its effects on the election pretty much nil.

I wouldn't be sure sure about this, Chasing. Not everyone takes their family values so lightly and those arch-believers who used to take Palin's words as gospel will now be having second thoughts. There will be some fall out in the end because how can Palin speak with any authority on abstinence etc when her own backyard needs to be put in order?

There is certainly no comparison here.

Ms Cyprah--the comparison is solid.

Lisa @ 18,

I agree.

Ms C,

I'm a little shocked (ok not really) at how those on the left who always claim to be so understanding and supportive of young women in this situation, and people in crises in general,(as opposed to Republicans, or conservatives) are so quick to throw this young woman under the bus, in order to attack her mother for their political gain .

This 17 year old girl is now going to be hounded now day and night, simply because her mother is running for VP in a country where hundreds of thousands of teen age girls have made this same mistake.

I'm a Christian, I have a teen age daughter who is 16 years old. Yes my wife and I have taught and asked her to practice abstinence. But I'm sure she's also been taught about the different forms of birth control since she attends public school.

It's very difficult in this hyper sexual culture of our time to raise a young woman (especially young black women who have a 70% birth rate out of out of wedlock children in this country) to avoid this kind of situation.

Parents (in most cases) do the best they can, but the final decision your child makes, is the decision your child makes. Then you just have to continue to love and support them.

I can also tell by the comments of many here that they don't have children, and don't have a clue.

I hope Obama and his handlers will not try to gain political capital from this issue.

In the black community here in the US we have an old saying,

"What goes around comes around" (related to the bad karma of the condemnation of, or profiting on the misfortune of others)

Obama had better remember he has two pre-teen daughters, and that what goes around may come around.

I hope he will make a statement to cut this off at the knees, and tell his people that references to this girl's situation will not be tolerated in his campaign.

Then why didn't they say it right away? Further, why did she let rumors swirl for days that Bristol was Trig's Mom instead of coming out before her daughter was subjected to scrutiny...in fact, she has still not addresses the issues surrounding Trig's parentage...it is totally possible Bristol is on to baby #2...no one's challenged otherwise. Lying by ommission is still a lie.

"What goes around comes around"

Oh yes it does, and it has come around to the Republicans this time!

Ms. Cyprah, @18.3

Not everyone takes their family values so lightly...

As a pro-choice advocate, I have to say this (and please do not take offense) on family values. I don't think Governor Palin has taken her family values lightly. My family, liberal democrats to the core, has experienced several out-of-wedlock pregnancies, and has welcomed each one.

Part of the family values argument sustains that life is sacred (choosing life over the choice of an abortion) even if the life is created outside of wedlock, I don't see how this remotely affects the evangelical base or the election - as Chasing points out.

I, do however (and herein lies my own bias against Palin) question Palin's judgement on taking such a high public office seat while also having to manage the early intervention needs of her new infant. Who will bring Trig to physical and occupational services betwen 0 and 3 years of age? Will she? Someone in her family? The nanny?

Also, what are her beliefs about individuals with developmental disabilities or any disability for that matter.

The left needs to simmer down and stop sounding so shrill, and refocus on the issues it has championed over the last three decades, because to me...it would seem...the GOP is about to change things up over social services - while simultaneously denying a woman's right to choose life, or not. I'm a cynic.

Jazzman, I cannot disagree with anything you have said in your comment because it is common sense, and normally I would be right behind you on that. I am also against any hounding of this teenager because she is not different from many misled and confused teenagers who find themselves in this mess.

But what has happened here DOES matter for discussion because of whom the mother is. The minute we put ourselves in such a public glare, everything becomes fair game to examine. This lady should immediately step down, for the good of her family and allow it the privacy it sorely needs to address the issues which are obvious priority. She is highly inappropriate at this point. Maybe in 4 years or 8 years time, but certainly not now. There are too many unanswered questions here.

jazzman...

You're way off on this one, trying to condemn the Democrats in light of Palin's family issues.

While Mrs. Palin tries to posture herself as a champion of family values... she failed to maintain those values at home. If abstinence is Palin's answer... then why didn't she and her husband teach that lesson at home?

Any scrutiny brought upon the Palin household is a direct result of the VP selection. No one south of Juneau would know about or care about this teenager's unplanned pregnancy if her mother had not thrust herself into the national spotlight. Personal ambition can be a harmful thing to those you love.

Who threw Palin's daughter under the bus? McCain, whose campaign's vetting process is clearly underwhelming.

Caltha-palustris, thanks for your interesting comment. However, sustaining life is not at issue here. We applaud Sarah Palin for the support she will be giving to her daughter. That's what any decent and caring mother should do and an entirely separate issue. But the indignance felt here is at the obvious double standards of spreading the message on abstinence to others so long as it does not apply to them. Ignoring that key point won't quell the cynicism or disbelief.

I was missing your opinion. In fact, now more than ever I am going to vote. Mothers we feel together and no one can say it is not going to happens to me.

The funnel syndrome.....

Hear, hear! That is what REAL family values are all about: not just thinking about ourselves, but our kids!

Do you need some Depends because you are leaking of excitement

Any scrutiny brought upon the Palin household is a direct result of the VP selection. No one south of Juneau would know about or care about this teenager's unplanned pregnancy if her mother had not thrust herself into the national spotlight. Personal ambition can be a harmful thing to those you love.

Thank you SnotRag Dave! That's the essence of the matter.

While Mrs. Palin tries to posture herself as a champion of family values... she failed to maintain those values at home.

Exactly when and where did Palin posture herself as a champion of family values and abstinence?

Do you have any information of her having run on such a platform as govenor?

Most of us never heard of the woman before last Friday.

You and others know nothing about the history of what this girl was taught on sex and marriage, and make a lot of assumptions and comments based on what you think took place in that family and home.

Basically people are projecting a fantasy of the life of Bristol Palin, and then using that fantasy to base their derogatory criticism on.

Most of us never heard of the woman before last Friday.

Got that right. That's part of the problem with an unknown. People's imaginations are running wild, and they can only go on the known aspects of the candidate.

In this case, we have a candidate who provided an iffy response to whether abortions are acceptable in cases of rape. She's certainly *strongly* pro-life either way. Is a member of feminists for life, who put out *this* ad:

http://www.feministsforlife.org/img/cop/ads_PDF/03DeathPenalty.pdf

Which says that rape is not a justifiable exception for having an abortion...

Now, I'm arguing elsewhere that being a member of a group doesn't necessarily mean you share all of that group's views, but others are arguing that belonging to FFL means that she *must* support contraception, because the group does. So, on that argument, they must also believe that she *must not* see rape as an exception.

Either way, this candidate has squidgy views, and people not knowing means they're going to assume the worst, and the longer they wait to put her views out in a way that people can understand, the worse it's going to get.

McCain should have anticipated this, and had something ready for people to read.

I really get a kick out of the lefties and libs positions on this.

Suddenly, she's a bad mother because she doesn't stay home. Whooooaaaaa, where did that come from.

And now she's a bad mother because she won't be driving her child to special needs school each day!

I just have to laugh at the hypocrisy shown by you folks. It is absolutely remarkable.

All you are saying is what you accuse the republicans of being, hide bound, keep the mother home, don't let her work, make her a house wife and child caregiver only.

LOL. Anything to rant and rave, eh?

And Ms. Cyprah, you're full of it. Just because she is the VP choice shouldn't mean that every part of her life is open to absolute inspection and criticism.

That's why we have such crappy candidates, because EVERYONE screws up and those who wish to have a life have said no way to the political arena because of these shark attacks.

So keep it up, the more you folks rag this woman, the stronger she will seem to be and the more hurtful y'all will seem to be.

Jazz:

No sense talking sense, buddy. They smell blood and like sharks will even attack their own.

What they don't realize is that it is their blood they smell.

wmolaw:

All you are saying is what you accuse the republicans of being, hide bound, keep the mother home, don't let her work, make her a house wife and child caregiver only.

That's right, it's what the Republicans are. What happened with Bristol becoming pregnant IS THEIR RAISON D'ETRE FOR WHY A WOMAN'S PLACE IS IN THE HOME. By the Republican base's standards, this woman is a failure. She is the perfect opportunity to point out their hypocrisy.

Scott:

You badly misinterpret the republicans.

Funny, but being in business myself most female executives tend to be quite conservative.

And for so many to say that she should stay home (see Ms. C) or she's a bad mother, wow. I love it.

Go for it. The more the merrier.

Heck, Ms. Cyprah even publishes and article/seed which supposedly had a naked picture of Palin (it was photo shopped).

seems there will be real lefty "hate women" stuff coming out, and that could really push women to vote for McCain.

wmolaw:
You work in the rural South or the West where the Republican support is the strongest?

Micrometer-

"That John McCain knew about this before he picked Sarah Palin, is a measure of the integrity of the man. They will make a great team in Washington."

I could have believed you wanted to add to the conversation when you asked us all to remember our own faults and feel compassion for this future family. Unfortunately, when you fly this up the flag pole as another measure of McCains integrity, I am unable to take you seriously as a fully functioning voter.

Explain it like I am a fifth grader. How is this woman proving her judgement to handle the Presidency, if so called to do. Is it her forthrightness with the American people. What part of her story has she provided prior to answering the vetting process?

Micrometer:

Exactly, you hit it right on the head.

No Pain:

Your post makes no sense, so I think you need to take that grade over again. McCain has already said that he knew about this BEFORE he picked her. So, tell me, what is your post all about?

So far I think she has shown a wonderful ability to handle a very, difficult personal issue that has been thrust into the spotlight.

Kudos to her.

McCain is not telling the truth if he says he knew that Bristol Palin was a pregnant, unmarried teenager when he asked Sarah Palin to be his VP or he is one of the most politically tone-deaf presidential candidates in modern history.

Scott:

Pure assumption. McCain said he knew, and you have no evidence otherwise.

Pure assumption.

Actually, from what I have seen, the stridency of the left's response to Ms. Palin shows one of two things:

1. they are very, very worried,
2. They are showing their true colors.

either way, a good thing for the McCain campaign.

for, soon, the denigrations and demeaning stories of the left will BECOME the story. And once that happens, then it will negatively reflect on Obama, though it will be an unfair reflection due to Obama's position on this, but it will happen nonetheless. Which, I suspect, is why Obama has said what he has said.

wmolaw & Jack:
I was just opining from past campaign experience. If Jack has evidence I'm more than willing to listen and discuss.

Jack:

You are so Machiavellian.

Of course McCain knew. His vetting process didn't let this slip by. I suspect there were lengthy and in depth "what if" scenarios played out.

And they all came out the same, it ain't gonna hurt us, it can only help. And they're probably right.

Stridency (either left or right) doesn't go over well and the left has clearly been strident on this issue (just see the seeds on this site).

McCain is fighting for the middle, which he needs to do. And this is an arrow in his quiver methinks.

And I have no doubt but that you are right regarding the fact that her hidden belly was purposeful.

From what I have seen of Palin she would have disclosed everything she knew. Remember, she was already in hot water because of the firing mess, but McCain took her anyway.

Jack:

Okay, you are assuming that Obama has control over Daily Kos, right?

If that is true, then he will have to bear the brunt of other things on that site as well, natch?

Maybe Obama himself.

Jack:
It makes sense to me. The last thing the Republicans want to do is yield a picture of a pregnant, unwed Bristol Palin to grace the cover of every magazine and newspaper. It's entirely possible, however, that McCain's handlers didn't know until the invitation to the ticket was extended and then they acted quickly to minimize the damage. A picture says a thousand words and they are denying the media Bristol Palin's pregnancy like Bush denied the media the coffins being flown home from Iraq to Dover AFB: to prevent political damage.

If McCain did know before he extended the invitation I think that it was foolhardy and bad judgment as there were other candidates that could help him. Olympia Snowe would have boosted the image of a maverick that he has been trying to cultivate. Susan Collins, Elizabeth Dole and Kay Bailey Hutchinson if he was dead set on choosing a woman. Hutchinson would have been a great VP to solidify the base. Not to mention that he could have united the party and given himself a better chance to win Michigan which is a key battleground by choosing Mitt Romney. I think this will prove to be a mistake, perhaps a catastrophic one for the campaign.

wmolaw:
Obama had influence with DailyKos... that is far different from "controlling" it.

Jack:
That's true. Choosing Palin was in essence "going for broke": he's either going to win or lose pretty handily. I think it is an indication of the increasing concern among McCain's campaign advisers. Choosing someone with a scandal (much less several) following them around like a black cloud over their head is going to result in negative earned media coverage. This may be the ultimate gamble from McCain.

Scott, Jack.

I agree. But, still a good move. Status Quo for McCain wasn't working for him.

wmolaw:
I have to agree, life before his VP choice was no picnic either.

Anyone want to take bets on how long before a Gennifer Flowers or a Monica Lewinski shows up from Obama's past?

I guess not too long now, with the Repulicans planning to plant one there!! :o(

And yes, this IS a family values thing. The young couple will accept their responsibility, marry and raise the child, along with the love and support of the Palin family

And live happily ever after, do they? Gosh, life is so simple for Republicans. No wonder they are in a mess, especially when their main tenet seems to be: Do as I say but not as I do!

Micrometer---what makes you think the Media plans to start properly vetting obama now?

Ms. CYPRAH

Let (s)he who is without sin cast the first stone.

We try teach our children right and wrong. It doesn't always take, especially in matters of sex.
The Palin family is making the best of the situation, which is all we humans can do.

That is one of the qualities we look for in a leader. Sarah Palin is the right choice for veep.

It doesn't always take, especially in matters of sex.

The abstinence-only bumpkins seem to think it does.

The Palin family is making the best of the situation, which is all we humans can do.

A situation that deflates her political stances.

Sarah Palin is the right choice for veep.

Apparently, no one told McCain. He was adamant about Lieberman for quite a while, having only recently caved to Christian-right shrillery.

That is one of the qualities we look for in a leader. Sarah Palin is the right choice for veep.

Micrometer, leadership, like charity, begins in the HOME, not outside it. The best place for Sarah's qualities as a leader is with her family to show that FAMILY needs come before every other need. No one is saying she shoudn't run for Vice President. Just that the timing is all wrong!! If she cares so little for the emotional welfare of her daughter, etc, how will she care for the country's needs?

Ms. Cyprah:

Yup, all of a sudden you're for keeping women at home, barefoot and pregnant?

LOL, gotta love that.

So, come on folks, let's fire all female executives and others who are in a position of power, at least those who have children, eh?

Great position there Ms. Cyprah. Seems we are really going back about three hundred years now.

wmolaw:
Valiant attempt to change the subject, but the fact is that Palin should return to the governorship of Alaska because her family is in turmoil. She has a young, sick child and another baby that is about to have a baby of her own that she will need all the help she can get raising. Something is wrong in the Palin household and we will find out how much Palin's career means to her versus straightening her family out based on whether she returns to Juneau or continues running for VP.

Scott:

A down syndrome child is not necessarily "sick." I have seen nothing that said the child is sick.

Have you? Pretty bizarre that you call such a child "sick." Way to show that good old lefty care and understanding.

There is also a father, and he can certainly help. Funny how so many are now saying that a woman shouldn't work, but should stay home with the family!

Gotta love THAT hypocrisy. Wonder how that will fly with the women in this country.

So, come on folks, let's fire all female executives and others who are in a position of power, at least those who have children, eh?

Great position there Ms. Cyprah. Seems we are really going back about three hundred years now.

Wmolaw, you are using the oldest trick in the book. When you don't like the message, shoot the messenger. That will make the message more palatable, will it?

Nowhere in my comments do I advocate Sarah Palin staying at home, per se. I have said it is wrong timing on her part and her family should come first, particularly in view of the various special needs in it at the moment. If that is such a bad thing for a mother to do, then I rest my case.

wmolaw:
Damn it, my college genealogy course tricked me with its liberal propaganda into thinking a child with Down's Syndrome was not classified as having a sickness or disease. What a fool I am!

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem because every time I have said a woman's place is in the house I have qualified that by saying that is the view of many evangelicals, who are paternalistic to the core or I was parodying their stance. My own mother holds a job and did at various times when I was growing up. If you're looking for someone to say women belong in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant, it ain't me babe.

Scott,
Ahem...it is Down syndrome. Not Down's Syndrome or Down's syndrome. Down syndrome.

Wmolaw is absolutely correct - an individual with Down syndrome is not necessarily sick.

C-P, ahem, it's both.

Well, technically it's trisomy 21 - we could quibble over terms like translocation, mosaicism
and the like...what's most important to remember is the person always comes first.

I think I was also reacting to Scott's usage of Down's child or someone else's usage.

Jack:
Thank you. I was about to point out that Down's Syndrome is correct because it was discovered by Langdon Down and science has a habit of naming diseases after the doctors/scientists that discover them so the possessive "Down's" is in line with accepted scientific practice.

Jack H, I also noticed that the entire wiki article you linked uses Down syndrome, and NOT Down's Syndrome or Down's syndrome, throughout. So tell me again - why that is.

what's most important to remember is the person always comes first.

Right, it's because of "the person" that you brought up the semantics of possessive terminology.

Jack H, I also noticed that the entire wiki article you linked uses Down syndrome, and NOT Down's Syndrome or Down's syndrome, throughout. So tell me again - why that is.

The same reason it doesn't use "trisomy 21": popularity -- probably due to the verbal difficulty of the repeated "s" sound. You said yourself that it's "technically trisomy 21." It seems that you make a great debate foil for yourself.

Kori-

I agree that you! "on a very personal level I believe the Palin family does show true family values by supporting her daughter and her new baby."

I believe they have every right to their family values, and that they will do what they think is right! I also believe the rest of us have a right to our family values and doing what we think is right! Most posting is about hypocrisy invading the political process and making it impossible to have realistic voting to represent the needs facing this country. One issue voting has divided this country for too long. It must come to an end!

Obviously Ms. Palin's daughter made a choice to have unprotected intercourse and got pregnant

Were you there?

The daughter of a friend of mine made one puncture because she was desperate for having a baby and the hubby did not want.

det:
That's very true. Bristol could have poked a hole in the condom to ruin her mother's career and get her attention. That happens to children with very busy parents: they'll do anything to get attention.

Mr Isaacs,

I posted a real story.

To the best writer the ink can spill, or something like that.

det:
No offense, but whether it was unprotected or condom-assisted sex doesn't really matter when her mother is the second foremost proponent of no sex before marriage and a political movement that calls teenage mothers moochers that make a choice to suck the welfare system in this country dry and are the product of irresponsible parents. By the core supporters' own orthodoxy, Sarah Palin is a bad mother and her daughter is a whore intent on defrauding taxpayers of their hard-earned money. This is like arguing about what brand of ammunition JFK was killed with: it has no bearing on the effects whatsoever.

Q,

Religion and Politics should be separate, but whatever religion we embrace SHOULD make us MORAL and people who don't perpetrate lies

In a better world than this maybe it does. But here. one's faith is a billboard, an advertisement, a badge, it's come to mean nothing...

The vast majority of young women who have out of wedlock births, have been taught about about birth control, and it didn't prevent the pregnancy.

No, Jazzy, because most birth control lessons ignore the intense feelings involved, and the fact that when youngsters have sex they tend to take risks because of the misguided belief, as with accidents, that it won't happen to them.

Some kids also use pregnancies to get away from home, to have someone they can love, to have someone to love them, to have a feeling of belonging and, above all, to have a feeling of worth and value. That they really MATTER to someone. When we divorce birth control teaching from addressing all those EMOTIONAL needs, young girls are bound to come unstuck at some point.

Btw, you are still missing the point here that all this has very little to do with this young girl but with the actions and beliefs of her mother that are not sitting well with her own family.

Some kids also use pregnancies to get away from home, to have someone they can love, to have someone to love them, to have a feeling of belonging and, above all, to have a feeling of worth and value. That they really MATTER to someone. When we divorce birth control teaching from addressing all those EMOTIONAL needs, young girls are bound to come unstuck at some point.

Your story? I am curious.

No, Jazzy, because most birth control lessons ignore the intense feelings involved, and the fact that when youngsters have sex they tend to take risks because of the misguided belief, as with accidents, that it won't happen to them.

For whatever reason MsC, it failed, and it proves teaching on birth control is not always a deterent, just as teaching on abstinence is not always a deterent.

I personally believe in a combination of both, but I promote abstinence, and then don't oppose teaching on birth control methods at the schools my children attend.

Btw, you are still missing the point here that all this has very little to do with this young girl

Ms C,

Many here will try to apply salve to their conscious (at least those who have one) by stating what you did above. But the reality is, this girl's life is going to become a nightmare, most likely with paparazzi maniacs now on her trail for the rest of her pregnancy, due to all the attention.

But the reality is, this girl's life is going to become a nightmare, most likely with paparazzi maniacs now on her trail for the rest of her pregnancy, due to all the attention.

True, Jazzy, and very sad, but it is incumbent on her parents to protect her. They threw her to the wolves with their selfishness and shortsightedness.

Your story? I am curious.

Yes, determined0a1, my story. The one I got from dealing with hundreds of young girls during my many years of teaching, nursing and counselling them. The angst and pain they suffered through being made to feel guilty about sex and their bodies and the many pregnancies which all the parental repression could not prevent.

Any further silly comments from you?

but it is incumbent on her parents to protect her. They threw her to the wolves with their selfishness and shortsightedness.

MsC,

Sorry I don't agree. Those throwing her to the wolves would be the ones trying to politically capitalize from this story.

So the parents bear no responsibility here, Jazz? Last time I read, it wasn't the young girl who wanted to be vice-president. :o(

True, Jazzy, and very sad,

Ms Cyprah -24.4---your crocodile tears are ringing just a tad hollow.

True, Jazzy, and very sad, but it is incumbent on her parents to protect her. They threw her to the wolves with their selfishness and shortsightedness

Ms Cyprah, thanks for your reply. However, you are mixing bananas w/sour grapes.

You are angry, you don't like Gov Palin because she is nice looking, you don't like that she is a raising star.

Remember, the kids of the nominees are off limits.

I have some respect for you but.......if the feelings that you share here is what you teach to the girls, I feel sorry for them.

One more question:

Nah.

Lisaed, I don't do crocodile tears as I know nothing about them. I leave that to people like yourselves who are obviously expert on such tears when you see them!

Ms C,

At some point WE have to decide we want a civil society or not.

That's what determines how this girl is treated.

Reading the comments on this issue in the little time since this story broke, we have decided not.

You are angry, you don't like Gov Palin because she is nice looking, you don't like that she is a raising star.

No, I am not angry, determined. I am terribly sad at this misguided lady and the way she is trivialising her family and their needs. I will ignore your shallow comments on beauty etc because this is certainly not the time to bring that in. Not appropriate here. It also shows how little you know about me. I am fabulous, determined. I do not need to envy anyone else for their beauty. Valuing myself as highly as I do, I can afford to value others too. I guess you are speaking for yourself on that one!

Nope, her mother threw her to the wolves (she also likes to shoot wolves, bear cubs, and wolverines from helicopters) when she decided to accept the nomination knowing full well that her daughter was pregnant.

This is news to us, it wasn't news to her.

She either believed that it would not make news (which demonstrates naivety, given her politics, and discredits her qualifications) or was so hungry to advance her political career so as to not give any concern as to how this kind of attention would affect her daughter and grandchild.

Either way it does not speak well of her character or recommend her for the vice presidency.

-nobody who is "fabulous" except in their own mind's eye would say the hateful things you are spewing about Sarah Palin.

It goes both ways, Lisaed. Considering the bile and lies you promoted about Obama, are we to believe that you aren't well? Based on that comment and your articles and seeds, I guess not!

determined to MsC- "You are angry, you don't like Gov Palin because she is nice looking, you don't like that she is a raising star.
Remember, the kids of the nominees are off limits.
I have some respect for you but.......if the feelings that you share here is what you teach to the girls, I feel sorry for them."

I must call you out. You are showing no respect for Ms C. You claim she doesn't like Palin because of her looks and status. Ms C doesn't claim she even knows Palin, let alone not like her. You are trashing the work she does and dismissing her experiences. No where did I get the impression she was discussing the nominees children's actions as a political condemnation. Claiming that is a cheap trick to impeach her, or anyone who feels like her. Judging politicians for how they conduct their lives both in and out of politics is unavoidable
Palin portrays herself as a politician with the judgement to clean up Washington. She opened up the "can of judgement" and will have to endure the vetting.

Either way it does not speak well of her character or recommend her for the vice presidency.

yeah well that comment doesn't speak well of your characterr...but we won't hold it against you

TJG---what "lies" have I told about obama? Have I said he's faked a pregnancy for one of his daughters????

Oh, Lisa, I'm sorry...I must have imagined you jumping on the "Obama is a coke dealer" line, carrying on about how Michelle hates America and questioning his religion. I guess innuendo is fine when it's a Dem, but your party isn't allowed to be scrutinized?

TJG---I never called obama a "dealer".....I continue to question Michelle Obama's patriotism which unlike a false pregnancy cannot be definitively debunked by a convention speech.....(perhaps you would have Sarah Palin take a DNA test to prove she is Trig's mother once and for all?).....and I continue to question Obama's judgement in sitting in the pews of TUCC for 20+ years.....

My character jazz is as questionable as yours, I'm no one of consequence.

Just a sniper taking shots here. You know how it is.

And yet you don't question McCain's judgment and vetting of Palin. As I said, you don't want to hold your own to any scrutiny. Which is OK, since the American people are seeing plenty of your party's missteps, LOL.

TJG---there's nothing about Sarah Palin that indicates to me that she is not the right choice to be John McCain's VP.

Lying about her daughter, being in a corruption scandal, having no foreign policy experience at all is the right choice, Lisa?

I guess it would be difficult to find a republican who isn't involved in a scandal, come to think of it. You really think Palin's the best McCain could have done?

You really think Palin's the best McCain could have done?

TJG---do you think Obama is the best the democrats could have done? My preference is for experience but America seems to be all about change this election---and it is the democrats who have made experience irrelevant to this discussion---now on both sides of the aisle.

Yes, I do think Obama is the best for the Dems. He won the primary, in any case. Palin was picked by McCain, out of a host of others. Weren't you hoping for Romney? Obviously, you don't think Palin was the best choice in that light.

But again, there you go, not answering a question. Why are you afraid to respond to questions?

TJG---go back and read my post again....I did answer your question.

You are angry, you don't like Gov Palin because she is nice looking, you don't like that she is a raising star.

True, we don't like Palin because she was essentially selected for her arm-candy qualities. It's scary that she has a chance of becoming POTUS.

yeah well that comment doesn't speak well of your characterr...but we won't hold it against you

Last I checked, he wasn't a VP candidate, kiddo.

TJG---there's nothing about Sarah Palin that indicates to me that she is not the right choice to be John McCain's VP.

Then you obviously know nothing about McCain's own sentiments. He strongly backed Lieberman as VP, until Christian-right shrillery made him cave and pick a party-line chucklehead.

and it is the democrats who have made experience irrelevant to this discussion---now on both sides of the aisle.

Yes, because the Democrats chose Palin as VP. You might wish to vet your own rhetoric before commenting on any other vetting.

Then you obviously know nothing about McCain's own sentiments. He strongly backed Lieberman as VP, until Christian-right shrillery made him cave and pick a party-line chucklehead.

Jack Huang,

Right, you were going to vote for McCain if he had chosen Lieberman?

I doubt it.

No matter who McCain chose you'd be taking shots at him/her.

Last I checked, he wasn't a VP candidate, kiddo.

I didn't direct that comment at you, but it's interesting you thought I did.

Palin portrays herself as a politician with the judgement to clean up Washington. She opened up the "can of judgement" and will have to endure the vetting.

Thank you, NPNG. That's precisely it! Not everyone wishes to be a politician. But the minute you not only go into the hot seat, but actually head for the highest office in the land, you expose yourself, your family, your values, your biases and aspirations. One can shield one's family from such scrutiny to a large degree but not when there are anomalies in what happens at home and what is prescribed outside!

Btw....Thanks for the affirmation and defence, it is appreciated and exactly right. :o)